ROTK Thread

[Keith]

Loved the movie, though I kept expecting to hear Sean Astin yell out "GOONIES NEVER SAY DIE"

Edited December 18, 2003 by Keith

[EXO]

I think the problem with the ending wasn't because it was drawn out. I believe it was because they kept winding it down only to start it up again.

The movie was great. Great battle scenes, I hoping to see more of the battle between the zombies vs. the orc army but they made it one big sweep, but there was so much fighting before that that it wasn't a great loss.

Poor Gollum.

[Uxi]

Oh yeah forgot to critique the movie in my contemplation of a Silmarillion Trilogy.

Pro:

Awesome battles. Great use of the olliphant/mumakil.

Nice camera/computer work with Minas Tirith and the dead army especially.

Good adaptation. Not perfect, but just about as much as possible.

Nice use of flashbacks for those who haven't read the books and/or watched the previous movies recently.

Con:

The scene I was most anticipating didn't make it on screen. That was Gandalf and the Witch King meeting at the Gate of Gondor. Instead of just that, all kinds of stuff broke in. Most disapointing...

I wanted to see Theoden take down the Chieftain of the Haradrim and THEN have the Witch King come upon him (though the pterodactyl/fell-beast thing tossing Theoden & horse was a nice touch). Wasn't that big of a deal to me, though, since the way it was done was done well.

WTF was up with Arwen supposedly dying to mortal? Unnecessary alteration to the plot.

The knuckle heads who want to clap and cheer through the whole movie... especially bad at the beginning credits. What is this, Star Wars? I didn't clap or cheer during any SW movie (even when the LFL or SW banners or opening), though I understand why some people were for that (mostly due to the enormous span of time between Original Trilogy and Prequels).

Nits:

Denethor didn't have any redeeming qualities in the movies. In the books he's a good leader, and doesn't lose it until Faramir comes back incapacitated. In the movie, he's a selfish arrogant prick from the get go.

Could woudln't they have expanded the coronation scene into the wedding with Arwen? Why pretend Aragorn couldn't know she was coming?

They could have better added drama to the Aragorn/Arwen thing by taking a page right from the appendices of Return of the King. That is Elrond's ultimatum to Aragorn that he would only yield his daughter to the King. Along with the silver rod of the King of Arnor (though there apparently is NO Arnor in the movie adaptation). Would have been far better than the Arwen mortal/dying thing.

[Keith]

The knuckle heads who want to clap and cheer through the whole movie... especially bad at the beginning credits. What is this, Star Wars? I didn't clap or cheer during any SW movie (even when the LFL or SW banners or opening), though I understand why some people were for that (mostly due to the enormous span of time between Original Trilogy and Prequels).

Were we at the same showing? Or are the masses just that stupid!

[Mechwolf]

I also saw it Wed. at 12:01am with a friend. It is such a great movie.

Concerning bad theatre manners...whats with people clapping in the middle of the movie? I can tolerate (though I still think it's silly) people clapping at the end of a movie. But in the middle of the movie!? Great Maker! Cut that crap out! I'm trying to watch the movie I spent my hard earned $5 on. And it's not just the "over-enthused" of us doing it either. "Normal" movie goers are doing it also. Atleast they are in my little corner of the universe.

I plan on seeing it again with my wife this weekend. And then again with my parents. And then with my friend again. And now that I finished 'The Silmarillion', I need to read 'The Hobbit' & the 'LotR' books.

I would also like to see 'The Silmarillion' done as a mini-series. However, I don't think there is any channel that would/could do it without screwing it up.

Damn it Uxi, you beat me to it.

Edited December 18, 2003 by Mechwolf

[eriku]

I've never applauded at any point in any theater because, well, it's an inanimate screen that can't appreciate it. However, it doesn't really bother me when other people applaud during a film, at least it's proof that they're enjoying it. I wonder though, do those people applaud the television when they're at home alone?

[bandit29]

People applauded(during and at the end) at the screening I was at too. I don't mind that too much but for some reason the dork who brought his lap top really annoyed the piss outta me. lol

All & all I enjoyed ROTK. I think it could of done without the Gollum scene at the beginning. The scene with Legolas on the elephant looked really fake.

I'm not heavily into the books, so I have a question. Did the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen seem so "underplayed" in the books It feels like it was just thrown in the movies and not really developed.

[Blaine23]

Okay, let's get it all out of the way...

MOVIE TALKERS SUCK ASS! PEOPLE WITH CELL PHONES RINGING (AND SOMETIMES BEING ANSWERED AND CONVERSED THROUGH) DURING A MOVIE SUCK ASS! PEOPLE INVOLVED IN INMATURE BEHAVIOR, INAPPROPRIATE LAUGHTER AND GENERAL ASS-NESS DURING A MOVIE I PAID $8 BUCKS TO SEE.... SUCK SERIOUS ASS!

Whew... I feel better.

As for RotK... I absolutely loved it. I think the biggest strength of the film (all 3, really) is PJ's direction in the smaller, more personal moments of the film. Yes, the camera-work the details, the effects, the costumes & props are amazing... but to me what makes the movie really work are the character driven moments like Sam & Frodo have, Denenthor and singing Pippin, Eowyn and Theoden, Aragorn and Elrond...

These are the moments that feel right... the actors nail the emotion pitch perfect and the film actually breathes with life.

The length of the film? Fine. I would have sat there for another 2 hours, if there were a need to. To me, the ending was great... not too much crap (razing of the Shire, boredom) but just enough to wrap things up sufficiently.

That's my 2 cents. Now, I can't wait for the Extended Edition.

[EXO]

Me and my friends went out of our way this time to go a little farther to avoid movie talkers. We went where it's mostly college kids (most likely don't have kids of their own) and would be the type to complain if anyone talked. After this I'm probably gonna avoid going to the theatres on the opening week, just so I can to a theatre closer to home. I wish I could find a theatre where it's all senior citizens. But then again I wanted to see LOTR not Something's Gotta Give.

[Sumdumgai]

Okay, let's get it all out of the way...

MOVIE TALKERS SUCK ASS! PEOPLE WITH CELL PHONES RINGING (AND SOMETIMES BEING ANSWERED AND CONVERSED THROUGH) DURING A MOVIE SUCK ASS! PEOPLE INVOLVED IN INMATURE BEHAVIOR, INAPPROPRIATE LAUGHTER AND GENERAL ASS-NESS DURING A MOVIE I PAID $8 BUCKS TO SEE.... SUCK SERIOUS ASS!

Here-here!

And while we're at it...

INCOMPETENT PEOPLE WORKING AT THE THEATERS SUCK ASS!

Frickin incompetent people at the local theaters here in my neighborhood all told me that they were only going to show ROTK dubbed in French, and not have sub instead. Then what do I see today when I'm walking by some of those same theaters? They have them showing subbed in French...

Plus I could have gone to see a marathon of LOTR extended version, but every theater doing it kept saying that you had to go see FOTR extended first week of December, get a passport and stamp for LOTR, then go see TTT extended the next week and get another stamp.

Finally the day before ROTK, you show the passport and stamps, then you get the right to buy a ticket for the marathon...

It turns out they were completely full of crap, and I could have gone...

Phew~ I feel better now!

[Oihan]

Saw the movie at 11:30 this morning, thought it pwnd! My only gripe was the ending...thought it was somewhat unessecary to drag on as long as they did.... It was still all awesome non the less. I can't wait for the extended version!!!

OT: I went to go see Bad Santa tonight as well.... That movie sucked balls...big fat frakking ones at that. What a waste of money that was....

[scand]

Loved the movie, though I kept expecting to hear Sean Astin yell out "GOONIES NEVER SAY DIE"

That oger leading the orcs did look a little like Sloth!

[cube]

saw the movie today, and it rocked (of course).

Highlights:

-Rohirrim chargin over the orcs

-dead/ghost army charging over the orcs

-trebuches! (spelling?)

-Legolas owning the Oliphaunt

-steward of gondor yumping (yes...yumping) off the top of Minas Tirith

Lowlights:

-Gandalf et al standing in front of the Black Gate calling out the forces of Mordor looked fake

...erm...that's about it.

I'll probably go see it again within the week.

[Blaine23]

Saw the movie at 11:30 this morning, thought it pwnd! My only gripe was the ending...thought it was somewhat unessecary to drag on as long as they did.... It was still all awesome non the less. I can't wait for the extended version!!!

OT: I went to go see Bad Santa tonight as well.... That movie sucked balls...big fat frakking ones at that. What a waste of money that was....

You thought the movie dragged on at the end... yet you await the Extended version of said film.

Uh... okay. Hope the extra 30-40 minutes of footage added to the film helps it move along at a brisker pace for you.

And Bad Santa ruled.

Why is your beard coming off?

Santa loved a woman who wasn't clean.

But there is a place for all opinions... definitely not a film for everyone.

[GDomino]

I saw it a few days ago and I'm still getting over the longest ending I've ever seen... I was like WTF? This takes the cake for the ultimate never-ending story! I read the books back in High School and now I remembered why I skipped the last few chapters.

Overall, the movie was a great ending to the trilogy. It had everything, even a pink 'Toxic Avenger' as an Orc Commander

[EXO]

Overall, the movie was a great ending to the trilogy. It had everything, even a pink 'Toxic Avenger' as an Orc Commander

Toxic Avenger

I was thinking Goonies!

[Isamu Atreides 86]

I was thinking Goonies!

HEY YOUSE GUYS!!!

[David Hingtgen]

"Kill them all!!"

[JELEINEN]

I liked the ending. It goes a long way towards generating the same feeling of loss and ending that the book has. Even if I don't like what he did to some of the characters, Jackson's willingness to do the ending like that (very non-Hollywood) in order to try and emulate the emotional state of the book says a lot for him.

[Hurin]

Saw it last night.

Overall, I liked it. It was good. But I was ultimately disappointed, especially after reading nothing but good things about it. For the record I am one of those book-readers that are so maligned (not too much here, but elsewhere) for questioning unnecessary deviations from the original story. For the most part, throughout the last two years, I have understood the reasons for many of the deviations made. . . and I have accepted them. Over all three movies, I only really had two real problems. The first was the changes made to Theoden's character which were largely remedied in this last movie. But, unfortunately, this last movie also made one change that really tainted the movie for me. . . because it wasn't just a change, but a change that was both unnecessary and damaging to the sacrifice of many of the characters.

SPOILER

I'm speaking of the Army of the Dead fighting at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields (Minas Tirith). I could understand why this was done (to save time and not have too many battles shown). However, by making the Dead Army so omnipotently powerful on the battlefield, they really sell the sacrifices of so many living characters short. Essentially, we see Theoden fall, and many brave Gondorian and Rohirrim soliders as well. . . and then the Dead Army shows up. . . and we get the sense that had they just gotten there an hour earlier, they could have handled the entire army of Mordor on their own. . . no muss, no fuss.

For the record, in the books, the Army of the Dead does play a role: Aragorn takes the Paths of the Dead through the Mountains seperating Rohan and Gondor. He takes this shortcut to both head off a threat to Southern Gondor by the Corsairs from Umbar (evil Men) and to gather the Army of the Dead to him so that he will have an actual army with which to do so.

Now, even in the books, the concept of an Army of the Dead was a bit. . . difficult. But, it is handled on the page by Gimli only telling of the coming of the army in hindsight. . . and how they swept down upon the Corsairs of Umbar and defeated them. Thereby freeing the Southern Army of Gondor up so that they could board the Corsair ships and go to the rescue of Minas Tirith with Aragorn at their head.

Now, in both versions, the Army of the Dead plays a pivotal role and victory could not have been won without them. However, it is one thing to have them play a secondary role "off camera". . . and another to have them show up and destroy Sauron's entire invasion army in a matter of minutes. . . rendering the sacrifice of so many living men apparently moot.

Whether Theoden and the Rohirrim showed up or not, the Army of the Dead would have wiped out the enemy at Minas Tirith. So, what was the point of Theoden's sacrifice and that of his men? Though it is difficult to judge the timespan, it appears that the Army of the Dead appears on the scene no more than an hour after Theoden charges. Had Theoden been two hours later, the city would still have been saved without hardly any loss of life. Assuming of course that Minas Tirith's inner citadel would have held out a few more minutes.

How else to handle the Army of the Dead? Well, just a few quick changes could have been made. Here's a more faithful version that wouldn't have taken any more screen-time:

Elrond warns Aragorn of Corsairs coming from the South (same as movie), he then reminds him of the Paths of the Dead and the Dead Army (same as movie). He then tells him of the Army of Southern Gondor that is being held in check by the Corsairs (that's five more lines of dialogue, tops. . . which could have replaced that pointless dreck about Arwen becoming sick and only Sauron's fall saving her. Uh, did Aragorn really need any more motivation!?!).

We then see Aragorn do what he did in the movie, summoning the Army of the Dead.

Then, we have the exciting moment where Aragorn appears at the Battle of the Pellenor Fields. . . with a real army behind him.

When asked where this army came from, someone (Gimli does it in the book) describes the Dead Army conquering the Corsairs and Army of Umbar. . . etc. Flashbacks could be used (if needed).

I'm sure some will label me a fanboy purist. I'm sure others will say: "Dude, let it go." But, my understanding is that we are here to discuss the movie, and that is my impression of it and one of its more blatant flaws, in my humble opinion. Again, I don't mind changes in a film adaptation. But changes for no good reason that fundamentally alter a major element of the books (the sacrifice and heroism of the Rohirrim). . . make me sad.

As for a Silmarillion movie/mini-series. I think that would be a disaster. Tolkien struggled for decades to weave those stories into something of a coherent narrative. He was never able to do so. Christopher Tolkien basically sutured them together and published it without even trying (though I don't blame him). Though The Silmarillion is my favorite Tolkien book, it is definitely not an easy read (especially the first time).

The Silmarillion reads a lot like The Bible (Old Testament) in many of its parts. Show me a good adaptation of the Bible on film. It just can't be done. I can see them picking a story here and a story there and possibly making a film. . . but The Silmarillion as a whole would be a nightmare. Look at how much of an "action movie" LotR became. . . The Silmarillion lacks those most basic "hooks" of a proper narrative which the public will appreciate. Ya know, those pesky little details like a "main character" or "hero". A coherent plot centered on a specific goal. Might as well make a movie about three-hundred years of Roman History. The narrative would be just about as disjointed.

Guys, please keep things civil. Like I said, I liked the movie. But I was really irked by that one thing, and it ultimately tainted my enjoyment of the movie as a whole (my fault, I guess). So, if you really loved the movie. . . please don't feel it necessary to flame me just because I disagree. Though I'd be thrilled to hear if there's any alternate interpretations or possible things I haven't considered that would make the Army of the Dead less of a problem. But, I must warn you: "They are cool" is not a valid argument.

H

[Hurin]

Holy crap that is a long post. Sorry guys, I just posted and saw it. . .

[Anubis]

Saw it tonight. I loved it. Very well done, IMO. I don't mind at all that they ennding was so long, I prefer it when characters get some proper closure.

I will probably see it again soon. I want to see the rest of the stuff from the extended version of it now, too, but I have to wait a while for that.

I hope Peter Jackson gets clearance to do the Hobbit within a few years.

[bob joe mac]

Well I myself found this movie to be a good movie but a HORRID adaptation of the book.

But I could go on for hours about problems with it and the book but I had one problem with the MOVIE.

I mean I can understand perfectly of them taking out The healing house (Faramir picking up on Eowyn) and the scowering of the shire because they would have dragged the film on WAY to long.

BUT

The movie tells you NOTHING of what happens to Saruman. I mean is he just hanging out in Isengard or did he get stepped on by treebeard. Whatever.

In the end it was a pretty good movie.

Edit- About the simirillian NO.

About the Hobbit Iwonder what Jackson would do with Bard I mean he seems to like to make semi-important characters who do important stuff FAR more important then they were in the books (Eowyn).

Edited December 20, 2003 by bob joe mac

[imode]

Well I myself found this movie to be a good movie but a HORRID adaptation of the book.

But I could go on for hours about problems with it and the book but I had one problem with the MOVIE.

I mean I can understand perfectly of them taking out The healing house (Faramir picking up on Eowyn) and the scowering of the shire because they would have dragged the film on WAY to long.

BUT

The movie tells you NOTHING of what happens to Saruman. I mean is he just hanging out in Isengard or did he get stepped on by treebeard. Whatever.

In the end it was a pretty good movie.

Edit- About the simirillian NO.

About the Hobbit Iwonder what Jackson would do with Bard I mean he seems to like to make semi-important characters who do important stuff FAR more important then they were in the books (Eowyn).

Peter Jackson has explained the Sarumon bit multiple times. The reason was plastered all over the net just a couple weeks ago. He removed Sarumon's death scene from the movies he felt that placing it at the end of the Two Towers or at the beginning of Return of the King would have ruined the flow of the movie. Personally, I felt this was a wise choice as I didn't really care about Sarumon after he lost all his uruk hai. You'll probably be glad to know that they're adding the scene back in for the extended version of Return of the King DVD.

[Hurin]

The movie tells you NOTHING of what happens to Saruman. I mean is he just hanging out in Isengard or did he get stepped on by treebeard. Whatever.

Just about everything you mention as being absent will be shown in the Extended Edition DVD (Saruman especially).

For my own part, I understand that the movie can't be the same as the book. After all, that's the point of calling it an "adaptation."

It's when they choose to emphasize things I dislike over things I like. . . or when they alter things for no (apparent) reason. . . that's when I start to disagree.

But, just saying: "This wasn't the same" doesn't automatically make the change bad. Which is where I think a lot of the fanboys head off the cliff.

BTW, that last part was not directed at you Bob Joe Mac.

Best Regards,

H

[JELEINEN]

I hope they don't put the death scene in. What they had in the theatrical release (them leaving Saruman locked up in his tower) is what happened in the book.

[Hurin]

I have no patience for the people who had no patience for the ending(s).

[Jolly Rogers]

This film would have been infinitely better if those hillbiliies who can't even speak a complete sentence showed up to help Gondor.

[Briareos]

I hope Peter Jackson gets clearance to do the Hobbit within a few years.

http://filmforce.ign.com/lotr/articles/442...2/442738p1.html

This might never come to be even though both Jackson and New Line are trying to make the movie a reality. Even Ian McKellen would love to make the movie. The problem is with the Tolkien estate headed by Christopher Tolkien. Chris was against the movies from the get go but the rights were already to sold producer Saul Zaentz. Jackson wanted to perserve all the costumes, bigatures, and art in a museum in Wellington but Chris denied them permission. Chris hates any movie translation since it defines what the reader's imagination would be and takes away from the reading. A lot of purist fans feel that way too. Think of what Dr. Seuss fans feel about the abuse on "The Cat in the Hat" adaptation. Now some people are bitter at him saying that he's living off his father's works though royalty fees and publishing Tolkiens scraps as the Silmarillion.

It's not to say that getting the Hobbit movie would be impossible. The Cat in the Hat movie as I hear it never got the real permission from the family of Dr. Seuss. They achieved the rights from the people who did a previous cartoon version. I'm assuming they can work around this problem with the Hobbit cartoon rights.

Spoiler alert...

Question. Remember the trailer for ROTK where you see Pippen and Gandalf on horseback in Minas Tirith encouter a Nazgul on a fell beast. I don't believe I saw that in the movie anywhere. Did I miss it or was it cut out?

For those of you who thought Denethor's dementia was a little too extreme, there's a reason for this. Denethor hid away a palantir at the top of the tallest tower of Minas Tirith. Looking into it he was fed subtle information from Sauron and thus driven mad. I wonder if this was edited out as well.

Anyone with favorite quotes from the movie?

Elrond: [in Elvish] I give hope to the West.

Aragorn: [in Elvish] I have kept none for myself.

Aragorn: [to hobbits as they bow to him] My friends... you bow to no one.

[Everyone bows to the hobbits]

Eomer: You should not encourage him.

Eowyn: You should not doubt him.

Eomer: I do not doubt his heart, only the reach of his arm.

Drew

Edited December 20, 2003 by Briareos

[Doktor Gonzo]

Anyone with favorite quotes from the movie?

Elrond: [in Elvish] I give hope to the West.

Aragorn: [in Elvish] I have kept none for myself.

Yeah, this one. Why? 'Cause it's an incredibly obscure linguistic play that, I think, actually adds greatly to the meaning of the scene. How so?

"The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" in the Appendix tells us that, as a boy in Rivindell, Aragorn's true name and heritage were hidden from him. He grew up as "Estel", which is the Elvish word for "hope". If you listen to the Elvish in the scene, both Elrond and Aragorn use the word "estel" in their exchange. Also, the line of Elrond's just prior is an abjurement to "put away the Ranger, and become the King." So basically, I think the writers snuck in an extra shading of meaning for those geeky enough to find it, implying that Elrond is hinting to Estel/Aragorn that he needs to become the King, the man of the world, and that Aragorn is lamenting the loss of his old, private self...

[David Hingtgen]

I just re-read the appendix last night, and those lines are VERY similar to those said to Aragorn by his mother (the last thing she ever said). ::gets book::

"I gave Hope to the Dunedain, I have kept no hope for myself". Hope capitalized for the whole Estel=hope thing. (translated from Elvish)

My fave line: "That still only counts as one!" --Gimli.

[Jemstone]

Hee... isn't it funny that the same people who are most likely to nitpick a film apart are the same ones who line up to see it at midnight?

No, not really. I don't follow you. Still after the climax the ending seems to go on and on. They could have saved some of it for the extended cut.

I don't disagree with you Jem (I haven't seen the film yet, so I can't) - I was just making a point about fandom in general.

People who love something are the first to see it and usually the first to bash it.

If PJ had cut some of the ending materials, you'd have somebody else dogging it because PJ "cut out the heart" of LotR. Hell, people were already whining about the lack of Saruman in RotK before the movie came out... and that sequence is more anti-climactic than anything that he could have left in the finished film.

People willing to stay up until 4 in the morning on a work night to see a flick are almost certain to be let down somewhat... this is a movie, folks. Not the rapture.

Well, that's what I mean. People will nitpick a movie no matter when they see it. You were hearing it from those guys then because they had been the first to see it. The nitpicking will go on. It always has and always will. Makes no difference about the general fandom when they saw it.

[1st Border Red Devil]

SPOILER

      For those of you who thought Denethor's dementia was a little too extreme, there's a reason for this. Denethor hid away a palantir at the top of the tallest tower of Minas Tirith. Looking into it he was fed subtle information from Sauron and thus driven mad. I wonder if this was edited out as well.

That wasnt what got me. It was the fact that Citadel Guards of the Fountain did NOTHING to stop Gandalf from whacking Denethor. Im sorry...but Gandalf would never have done that sort of thing (he doesnt bully...he motivates...that is the true power of Narya: the Ring of Fire) and the Guards would NOT have stood by and watched that sort of exchange. Denethor was the Ruling Steward of Gondor. While he may not be a King....he rules in the Kings stead until he returns. That means that he is to be protected at all costs.

There were other problems...like Eowyn's clipped remarks to the Witch-King of Angmar (at least the cartoon version of The Return of the King managed to get most of this important speech...unlike the movie). All I have to say is that they had BETTER include The Houses of the Healing in the Extended Edition.

Edited December 21, 2003 by 1st Border Red Devil

[azrael]

All I have to say is that they had BETTER include The Houses of the Healing in the Extended Edition.

The Houses of Healing will be in the EE. PJ confirmed it Newsweek.

[Briareos]

All I have to say is that they had BETTER include The Houses of the Healing in the Extended Edition.

The Houses of Healing will be in the EE. PJ confirmed it Newsweek.

There's already insights as to what the extended edition will have. This comes from Aint it cool so naturally this information should still be considered rumour.

Major ROTK EE SPOILERS ON THIS LINK

http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=16689

Drew