Asuka II Carrier Battle Group

[Egan Loo]

While the Compendium is officially sanctioned by Big West and Egan AFAIK, bases all his information on tranlated Japanese source material, I'd have to second that it is not always 100% accurate (more like 99%!). It's the closest thing we have to accurate but the odd mistake has been known to creep in.

Thanks for the catching that typo'ed letter earlier this year!

Often the problem lies in omission rather than outright mistakes. In that just because something is not mentioned in the specs, doesn't mean it might not be there.

Indeed, this is the case with the Macross universe as a whole. For both the Macross universe (and thus the Compendium), it is less a problem and more of a work in progress. One example is the VF-9. There were fans who complained after the VF-9 became officially Macross with the M3 game release that it shouldn't exist. According to them, that's because the YF-19 was supposedly the "first" forward-swept-wing variable fighter. However, in the 12+ years since the YF-19 was made public, neither the Macross creators nor the Macross Compendium ever said it was the first. As often is the case with Macross, it is better to omit what the creators have not fully spec'ed out, than to assume what the creators haven't specifically stated. That's the Macross Compendium's philosophy.

Neither the Macross creators nor the Macross Compendium are perfect, but we do what we can while not going crazy over it.

[Knight26]

This is exactlty why I am so anal with my designs so that just in case my books get popular after publication debates like this don't start.

[Egan Loo]

Now the funny thing about those anti-gravity engines (as per Macross Perfect Memory,) they are always and ONLY seen immediately before a ship begins using anti-gravity.

Good points. Save that the similar looking engines in the SDF-1 ARE described as anti-gravity generators, in Japanese.

Neither the first Macross series nor Macross Perfect Memory use the term "anti-gravity" or "anti-gravity generator." The Macross creators prefer the term gravity control.

"Macross Special Preview: Do you remember love?" states that the lower 1/3 of the lower legs are the "main reaction engine" - which makes sense, as that is where the engine nozels are. The upper 2/3 of the lower legs contain the food (life necessity) production block, and (civilian) living quarters in the starboard, and the "busy city" in the port.

It actually says the business district, the counterpart to the residential district in the starboard.

The military block is in the central chest, with the main waste (garbage) incinerator composing the spine.

It actually says the main reactor.

The two "breasts" contain the sub-reaction engine, and the anti-gravity engines,

It actually says the lifting sub-reaction engines and the gravity control systems.

and the two 'prongs' above the shoulders contain the 'booster cannon.' (pg. 44)

It actually says the main gun/buster cannon.

[Egan Loo]

Also the Auerstadt only had 20 launch tubes

The Auerstädt doesn't have 20 launch tubes for fighters.

[Egan Loo]

Agreed on the Compendium stuff. As I have stated earlier (or elsewhere,) the compendium is mostly correct, but it does have errors and inconsistencies. If you want, here are some examples off of the top of my head:

Wrong number of conformally mounted missiles for the VF-4 (claims 6, when there is really 12.)

The This is Animation Special: Macross Plus book is the only printed source that lists the number of missiles, and it states six long-range missiles. No official source ever stated otherwise. Either the book has a typo (that has never been corrected in subsequent official sources with VF-4 stats) or fans are counting what aren't standard missiles loads. For now, the Macross Compendium sticks with the official stats.

VF-4, VF-11 and VF-5000 contradict each other re: when which was the main fighter of the UNS.

The VF-4 and the VF-5000 both assumed the role of main fighter of the UN Forces (not UN Spacy) in the 2020s. The VF-4 was intended as the main fighter of all the branches from 2020 onward, but the VF-5000, with its lower cost and superb atmospheric maneuverability, assumed the role for several of its branches during the later half of the 2020s. The VF-11 took over from the VF-4 in the UN Spacy and eventually the rest of the UN Forces. Again, this is all detailed in This Is Animation Special: Macross Plus.

Inconsistant use of Supervision Army and Inspection Army, when they are one and the same.

Where does it say "Inspection"? According to Toshimichi Suzuki, who was there when Macross was being developed, it should be the Supervision Army. He made sure to emphasize this in phonetics.

[Egan Loo]

That´s why when in doubt one must ask in the Macross World forum

As you can see in this thread — as in any thread on any Internet forum — you're just as likely to get wrong answers as the right ones.

[Noyhauser]

I was curious to see when you would show up....

Yay for Egan!

[sketchley]

Re: the VF-4, 11, and 5000

It may be so, but the way that the stats are written, it appears to be contradictory. I humbly suggest amending the write-ups to stem off further confusion.

Re: Inspection Army vs. Supervision Army

http://www.google.com/search?q=++inspectio...earch=anime.net

(Yes, agreed that one instance isn’t much… kudos for catching all of the other instances.)

Interesting that Toshimichi Suzuki chose to emphasize a non-standard translation of the kanji used: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...140&st=1567 If it’s as the creators choose, then who are we to debate their choices.

Re: Gravity Control vs. Anti-Gravity

Agreed. I was (and may continue to) using the term as anti-gravity is more self-explanatory than gravity control. There was a conscious choice to use dissimilar words from those in a quote earlier in this thread from a fan sub (“controlling gravityâ€) as well.

Re: VF-4 Conformally Mounted Missiles

One of the frustrations I have had with the Macross Compendium is its lack of documentation of the sources for individual stats. Thank you Mr. Loo for providing it in this case – it is much appreciated.

Do you mean this line on page 67 of “TIA: Macross Plusâ€: “ã“ã®ä»–本機ã®ç‰¹å¾®ã¨ã—ã¦ã¯ã€åŠåŸ‹ã‚è¾¼ã¿å¼ã®é•·å°„程ミセイルを６発æ­è¼‰ã—ã¦ã„ã‚‹ã“ã¨ãŒã‚ã’られるâ€?

Thank you for mentioning that you are open to considering it to be a typo, as in the same Variable Fighter’s Aero Report on Pg 57, there is an error (the chart lists one set of MK-82LDGB as mountable on position B, (where only the NP-FB-01 FAST pack is mountable,) while leaving hardpoint 1 blank.)

Please refer to the attached image. It is from page 67 of “Shoji Kawamori’s Macross Design Works.†The exact same line art can also be found on pages 54 and 55 of “Best Hit Series: Macross Flashback 2012â€.

The notes in the red circles are “åŠæ²¡å¼ãƒŸã‚»ã‚¤ãƒ«â€. Which can be translated as either, Semi-Sinking (recessed?) Type Missile, or Half Death Type Missile. Given what it is pointing at in the line art, my interpretation is that they are the conformally mounted (semi-recessed) missiles.

At minimum, the line art directly points out 4 missiles (red). Extrapolated to 8 (red & pink), and 12 (red, pink, & blue) if all of the things that are exactly the same are included. The lineart does not correspond with 6, as per the “TIA: Macross Plus†book.

Re: Translations of “Macross Special Preview: DYRL?â€

The translations were via a Japanese native speaker, and I was in a rush to do them, and failed to double check (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as the native speaker translator is my wife…) As penance, the correct translations are:

主砲：ãƒã‚¹ã‚¿ãƒ¼ã‚­ãƒ£ãƒŽãƒ³ = main armament: buster cannon

上昇用サブリアクションエンジン：é‡åŠ›åˆ¶å¾¡ã‚·ã‚¹ãƒ†ãƒ ã€€= Sub-reaction engine for rise: Gravity control system

è»äº‹ãƒ–ロック = Military Block

メインå応炉 = the Main Reactor

食糧生産ブロック = Food Production Block

ç¹è¯è¡— = Downtown

メインリアクションエンジン = the Main Reaction Engine

The various dictionaries referenced all resulted in downtown, and not business district. Nevertheless, it may be semantics. I’d also like to take the time here to remind everyone that Japanese/Asian cities differ from North American ones, in that zoning is not always residential or commercial only; mixed use being common. This can be seen in SDF:M with Minmei’s family living above their restaurant. Something very common in Asia, but virtually non-existant in the downtowns and business districts of my native country.

Thank you Mr. Loo for dropping by and adding your input. It is always welcome.

[Knight26]

Huh, I never realized that those were missiles before, cool find.

Now back on topic, what are your latest findings op4, anything new on the escorts, and are you going to do the other craft and planes as well?

[Egan Loo]

Re: the VF-4, 11, and 5000

It may be so, but the way that the stats are written, it appears to be contradictory. I humbly suggest amending the write-ups to stem off further confusion.

That's because the history of Macross is itself confusing; it took a sharp right turn. The UN Forces didn't intend for the VF-5000 to replace the VF-4. It just turned out that the VF-5000 was not only cheaper than the VF-4, but better for some branches, too. Just like in the real United States Armed Forces, there are sometimes more than one main fighter for the various branches simultaneously, and sometimes one fighter that replaces more than one earlier fighter. Another place that talks about this split in the road map is the Macross Digital Mission VF-X Flight Manual.

This split is also related to Shoji Kawamori's personal opinion of the VF-4, but that's another discussion.

Re: Inspection Army vs. Supervision Army

http://www.google.com/search?q=++inspectio...earch=anime.net

(Yes, agreed that one instance isn’t much… kudos for catching all of the other instances.)

Yeah, I've been waiting for Google to update its cache.

Interesting that Toshimichi Suzuki chose to emphasize a non-standard translation of the kanji used: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...140&st=1567 If it’s as the creators choose, then who are we to debate their choices.

Exactly. The team in Vermillion Team (ãƒãƒ¼ãƒŸãƒªã‚ªãƒ³å°éšŠï¼‰is not the standard dictionary translation of å°éšŠ ("platoon"). The mode in Battroid mode (ãƒãƒˆãƒ­ã‚¤ãƒ‰æ™‚ in Kawamori's VF-1 design notes) is not the dictionary translation for 時 ("time"). The classic Macross example is the U.N. in U.N. Spacy (çµ±åˆå®‡å®™è») is not the dictionary translation for çµ±åˆ ("unification"). It's best not to rely solely on a dictionary if the creators made a conscious decision not to use the standard dictionary translation.

Re: Gravity Control vs. Anti-Gravity

Agreed. I was (and may continue to) using the term as anti-gravity is more self-explanatory than gravity control. There was a conscious choice to use dissimilar words from those in a quote earlier in this thread from a fan sub (“controlling gravityâ€) as well.

That's defeating the purpose behind the choice that the creators made, and making Macross less unique in the process. The creators deliberately chose the term "gravity control" (é‡åŠ›åˆ¶å¾¡) over the science fiction cliche "anti-gravity" (åé‡åŠ›). Macross reflects the real world in that there is no credible concept as anti-gravity, just like there is no such thing as anti-electromagnetism. On the other hand, NASA thinks gravity control might be possible. As a rough analogy, the creators also chose the word "fold" over "warp," so we wouldn't rewrite all Macross instances of "fold" as "warp" either.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/research...p/gravstat.html

Re: VF-4 Conformally Mounted Missiles

One of the frustrations I have had with the Macross Compendium is its lack of documentation of the sources for individual stats. Thank you Mr. Loo for providing it in this case – it is much appreciated.

Do you mean this line on page 67 of “TIA: Macross Plusâ€: “ã“ã®ä»–本機ã®ç‰¹å¾®ã¨ã—ã¦ã¯ã€åŠåŸ‹ã‚è¾¼ã¿å¼ã®é•·å°„程ミセイルを６発æ­è¼‰ã—ã¦ã„ã‚‹ã“ã¨ãŒã‚ã’られるâ€?

Yep, that's the only place that an official print source has listed a missile count.

Thank you for mentioning that you are open to considering it to be a typo, as in the same Variable Fighter’s Aero Report on Pg 57, there is an error (the chart lists one set of MK-82LDGB as mountable on position B, (where only the NP-FB-01 FAST pack is mountable,) while leaving hardpoint 1 blank.)

Please refer to the attached image. It is from page 67 of “Shoji Kawamori’s Macross Design Works.†The exact same line art can also be found on pages 54 and 55 of “Best Hit Series: Macross Flashback 2012â€.

The notes in the red circles are “åŠæ²¡å¼ãƒŸã‚»ã‚¤ãƒ«â€. Which can be translated as either, Semi-Sinking (recessed?) Type Missile, or Half Death Type Missile. Given what it is pointing at in the line art, my interpretation is that they are the conformally mounted (semi-recessed) missiles.

It's semi-recessed. It's a standard aviation term.

At minimum, the line art directly points out 4 missiles (red). Extrapolated to 8 (red & pink), and 12 (red, pink, & blue) if all of the things that are exactly the same are included. The lineart does not correspond with 6, as per the “TIA: Macross Plus†book.

That's the tricky part. We're still talking about fan interpretation and extrapolation. It's been a topic of discussion for both Japanese and overseas fans for over a decade now. However, in that time, the Macross creators haven't revised that stat or confirmed fan extrapolation, even though errors in This is Animation Special: Macross Plus have been corrected in later books. Kawamori himself hasn't revised that stat, even though he has talked about the VF-4, and its semi-recessed missiles specifically, in interviews since that book came out.

Re: Translations of “Macross Special Preview: DYRL?â€

The translations were via a Japanese native speaker, and I was in a rush to do them, and failed to double check (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as the native speaker translator is my wife…) As penance, the correct translations are:

主砲：ãƒã‚¹ã‚¿ãƒ¼ã‚­ãƒ£ãƒŽãƒ³ = main armament: buster cannon

That's "Main Gun/Buster Cannon." Whenever we hear the Captain say, "Fire the Main Gun," in the dialogue, this is the Japanese term used.

上昇用サブリアクションエンジン：é‡åŠ›åˆ¶å¾¡ã‚·ã‚¹ãƒ†ãƒ ã€€= Sub-reaction engine for rise: Gravity control system

That's "lift." This is where the auxillary reaction engines are located for lifting the ship in fortress mode.

è»äº‹ãƒ–ロック = Military Block

メインå応炉 = the Main Reactor

食糧生産ブロック = Food Production Block

ç¹è¯è¡— = Downtown

メインリアクションエンジン = the Main Reaction Engine

The various dictionaries referenced all resulted in downtown, and not business district. Nevertheless, it may be semantics. I’d also like to take the time here to remind everyone that Japanese/Asian cities differ from North American ones, in that zoning is not always residential or commercial only; mixed use being common. This can be seen in SDF:M with Minmei’s family living above their restaurant. Something very common in Asia, but virtually non-existant in the downtowns and business districts of my native country.

Thank you Mr. Loo for dropping by and adding your input. It is always welcome.

Try this dictionary:

http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/dose...8AX&WC=none

Or this dictionary:

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?

Or Kenkyusha's Japanese English Dictionary.

Or Sharp's 15-year-old PI-3000 PDA with Japanese handwriting recognition. (It still does the job after all these years.)

In this case, it specifically means the business district or quarters. ç¹è¯è¡— (hankagai) is used to indicate the bustling shopping or commercial areas of a town, where shops and restaurants are. A ç¹è¯è¡— doesn't have to be downtown to have this name.

I'll drop by when I can, but it's been busy as usual. As Azrael said, your first stop for input should be email. Hopefully, things will settle down, despite the inevitable end-of-the-year chaos.

Edit: Looks like Invision has trouble with Shift-JIS-encoded Japanese characters in long posts. I switched to Unicode encoding.

Edited November 30, 2006 by Egan Loo

[anime52k8]

This split is also related to Shoji Kawamori's personal opinion of the VF-4, but that's another discussion.

a discussion I'd like to hear about, maybe we should just branch this topic off so we can stop hijacking this thread.

[sketchley]

Yeah... perhaps branching out this topic tangent would be good...

Agreed that Macross is awfully confusing. Using non-standard Japanese adds to the mess.

Thanks for the links, Mr. Loo. I've added them to my favorites. I have been using

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/

http://www.alc.co.jp/

Sanseido's Daily Concise English Dictionary

Tuttle's "The Learner's Kanji Dictionary" (My real powerhouse kanji dictionary is residing on the opposite side of the Pacific ocean, with it's English/Chinese 2x/Korean/Japanese translations of Kanji. >.< )

Sharp Genius PW-6500

Funny about Kawamori-san and the VF-4 stat... ガ。

Agreed that Invision isn't Japanese-text friendly. It occasionally mangles some of the characters input via my J-WIN PC. T.T

EDIT: I forgot to add the 言語ãƒãƒ¼ and ルビ that come standard with J-Win, and J-Word, respectively. The 手書ã in the 言語ãƒãƒ¼ is invaluable at times.

Edited November 30, 2006 by sketchley

[op4_delta]

Revising the 250-meter class statistic for the Asuka II would be revising the creators' own words. They themselves set the length of the craft as being "small-scale" in the "250-meter class." That's even written in the Volume 4 liner notes. It is deliberately smaller than the biggest carriers today, in fitting with the story setting. Keep in mind that the creators never said it was exactly 250 meters long, just that it is in the "250-meter class."

The Invincible-class carrier is only 194 meters in length, not 250-meter class.

The invincible is 210 meters long and the Charles de Gaulle is 261.5 meters long and I am not contradicting the creators, since there is plenty of evidence in the anime to realize that the Asuka is way longer I just dont know why they stated that crazy length, as I said beore, maybe is the difference between the designs of the Asuka, for more proof of this you can analyze the different masts the carrier has during the anime, one for the CG version and one for the drawn version.

As much as I would like to make 250-280 meters long Asuka, reality forbids me, as I say before is very hard to acomodate 4 catapults and 4 elevators inside and even if I do, as I did during my inicial design stage, the ship would look totally super deformed.

As for the OT gun, I decided to make those 2 bow guns just like they look in the anime, I think we can find out what they really are later.

[op4_delta]

The Auerstädt doesn't have 20 launch tubes for fighters.

You are right I miscounted them, it has 6 on each side, 12 in total.

[op4_delta]

I have the idea I am seen as the anti-compemdium guy everyones hates, because no one has commented my "possitive" non conflicting findings-statements on the Asuka, like the amphibious launch bay and the sea sparrow, those things are in the anime and not in the compendium.

I think we have to realize that most macross fans are not as hardcore as we are and maybe the information released by the creators to the public aims at the majority that does not want to know wich brand of lipstick Claudia La Salle uses

My point is: if something is not stated by the creators in the macross compendium it does not mean it does not exists and for the last time I am not against the compendium, it just does not have all of the answers.

[briscojr84]

I have the idea I am seen as the anti-compemdium guy everyones hates, because no one has commented my "possitive" non conflicting findings-statements on the Asuka, like the amphibious launch bay and the sea sparrow, those things are in the anime and not in the compendium.

I think we have to realize that most macross fans are not as hardcore as we are and maybe the information released by the creators to the public aims at the majority that does not want to know wich brand of lipstick Claudia La Salle uses

My point is: if something is not stated by the creators in the macross compendium it does not mean it does not exists and for the last time I am not against the compendium, it just does not have all of the answers.

You are doing a good job man, let's see some more stuff, maybe a CG'ed Auerstadt.

[sketchley]

I have the idea I am seen as the anti-compemdium guy everyones hates, because no one has commented my "possitive" non conflicting findings-statements on the Asuka, like the amphibious launch bay and the sea sparrow, those things are in the anime and not in the compendium.

In my experiences with message boards, generally the stuff that is agreed to isn't mention. It is only the stuff that is disputed or disagreed to that is commented on. Call it tacit agreement. (Though by accepting tacit agreement for the components on the Asuka II, one must also accept the presence of the gravity control system.)

[Knight26]

You're hardly anti-compendium, you are merely pointing out deficiencies, omissions, errors in the published materials that are in it and considered canon. You have pointed out several things that are in the anime but not listed in compendium. I think you may be right that the stats that were published, and therefore presented in the compendium, are based on an earlier design for the carrier and for some reason carried over, probably due to someone not paying attention. Hey it happens all over, and its nothing to get upset about, if you really want to see some people get anal over it go over to www.wcnews.com those guys are wing commander nuts and in their ship database they have all the different stats for the craft. From the published materials, the games themselves, etc...

[SpacyAce2012]

You are doing a good job man, let's see some more stuff, maybe a CG'ed Auerstadt.

I second that motion. I like the work done by op4_delta so far.

[Lightning]

a discussion I'd like to hear about, maybe we should just branch this topic off so we can stop hijacking this thread.

I'd like to hear more about SK's opinion on the VF-4 as well...

[op4_delta]

I think you may be right that the stats that were published, and therefore presented in the compendium, are based on an earlier design for the carrier and for some reason carried over, probably due to someone not paying attention.

You have explained my point using better words than me. Thanks, This way I dont have to apologize for my cheap english

[op4_delta]

Thank you all mateys, for your kind words and appreciation. Sketchley made me see the agreement thing on a different level, thanks man.

To answer Knight26: As you know I was working on the VF-0 too, but I halted it to focus on getting my history degree and to work on the DYRL mod for HomeWorld 2, but I will resume work on it soon. The escort destroyers are almost done, I recently finished a 5" gun for the burkes, the non stealth version used by the flight 1. To make the model final I need a good photoshop tutorial and a game engine to run it

Concerning the Auerstadt. My first intention was to make an Sv-51 and the sub-carrier, I have the greatest admiration for Sukhoi aircraft and russian subs, also it will be easer to complete it as a pack, since there are only 2 vehicles to model and we get a very good lineart from the anime itself, but I fell in love with the Asuka and got carried away

I promess I wil make an Auerstadt model, all I need to know is it´s real size and maybe what kind of conventional weapons it carries and where exactly, if not we can give it typhoon weapons

With some photoshopping this image can be rotated and enlarged to serve as a lineart.

Plus the Auerstadt is far simpler than the Asuka.

Edited November 30, 2006 by op4_delta

[briscojr84]

Thank you all mateys, for your kind words and appreciation. Sketchley made me see the agreement thing on a different level, thanks man.

To answer Knight26: As you know I was working on the VF-0 too, but I halted it to focus on getting my history degree and to work on the DYRL mod for HomeWorld 2, but I will resume work on it soon. The escort destroyers are almost done, I recently finished a 5" gun for the burkes, the non stealth version used by the flight 1. To make the model final I need a good photoshop tutorial and a game engine to run it

Concerning the Auerstadt. My first intention was to make an Sv-51 and the sub-carrier, I have the greatest admiration for Sukhoi aircraft and russian subs, also it will be easer to complete it as a pack, since there are only 2 vehicles to model and we get a very good lineart from the anime itself, but I fell in love with the Asuka and got carried away

I promess I wil make an Auerstadt model, all I need to know is it´s real size and maybe what kind of conventional weapons it carries and where exactly, if not we can give it typhoon weapons

I haven't seen all of M0 yet, maybe someone has pics of it using it's forward and aft weapon systems, a screen cap hopefully, that is if it actually used them in the show.

[op4_delta]

I haven't seen all of M0 yet, maybe someone has pics of it using it's forward and aft weapon systems, a screen cap hopefully, that is if it actually used them in the show.

Sadly those weapons are not used in the anime. Also we have to consider the Auerstadt as something more than just a submarine aircraft carrier. Following russian philosophy for naval aviation plataforms it may be armed with significant anti-ship weapons and maybe some anti-air, like the Kiev and Kuznetzov, wich are considered heavy aviation cruisers instead of carriers. My guess would be VLS tubes for cruise missiles and sea-skimmers and some torpedo tubes, also we have to consider if the octos were launched from the ship.

[briscojr84]

Sadly those weapons are not used in the anime. Also we have to consider the Auerstadt as something more than just a submarine aircraft carrier. Following russian philosophy for naval aviation plataforms it may be armed with significant anti-ship weapons and maybe some anti-air, like the Kiev and Kuznetzov, wich are considered heavy aviation cruisers instead of carriers. My guess would be VLS tubes for cruise missiles and sea-skimmers and some torpedo tubes, also we have to consider if the octos were launched from the ship.

I have a feeling the Octos probably were [unless there were other AUN vessels shown?], man is that the only exterior image of the Auerstadt.

[op4_delta]

I have a feeling the Octos probably were [unless there were other AUN vessels shown?], man is that the only exterior image of the Auerstadt.

There are some good outside shots of the sub, but that one in the bridge is the only one good enough to use as reference, the others can serve to perfectionate the details.

Some time ago we agreed that the Auerstadt was the "special operations" vessel of a larger AUN force, since it is seen floating with 2 destroyers in chapter 5, and there are some freaky looking Mig-29´s in the last battle. Those facts lead us to think that there was at least one conventional AUN carrier and it´s escorts, operating in the mayan theatre, since only 12 SV-51´s are not enough to take on the Asuka´s battle group.

[briscojr84]

There are some good outside shots of the sub, but that one in the bridge is the only one good enough to use as reference, the others can serve to perfectionate the details.

Some time ago we agreed that the Auerstadt was the "special operations" vessel of a larger AUN force, since it is seen floating with 2 destroyers in chapter 5, and there are some freaky looking Mig-29´s in the last battle. Those facts lead us to think that there was at least one conventional AUN carrier and it´s escorts, operating in the mayan theatre, since only 12 SV-51´s are not enough to take on the Asuka´s battle group.

Would you happen to have any of those pics.

[op4_delta]

The Auerstadt and her escorts.

A very good outside shot.

The ship is very organic, to me it resembles a prehistoric shark, a monster in all the sense.

Edited December 1, 2006 by op4_delta

[sketchley]

Fits with the motif of the Anti-UN in Macross Zero...

We know the size of the SV-51, right? There is a scene with them being launched from the sub. It'll require a lot of measuring, but it shouldn't be too much work to figure out the size of the sub. The 2nd picture above as the panel lines for the doors that cover the launch tubes, and they can be used to give an approximate length of the forward fins, which can be used to measure the total length in the bridge image a few posts back.

[op4_delta]

Fits with the motif of the Anti-UN in Macross Zero...

To me Macross Zero has a "prophecy fullfillent" theme, I don´t know if this is what you meant, but the AUN are like the fish humans resenting the bird humans doings, not wanting to leave the ocean into the sky and the whole ascencion thing Shin does, is the final reunion between the first human and his wife the bird humn that left before.

We know the size of the SV-51, right? There is a scene with them being launched from the sub. It'll require a lot of measuring, but it shouldn't be too much work to figure out the size of the sub. The 2nd picture above as the panel lines for the doors that cover the launch tubes, and they can be used to give an approximate length of the forward fins, which can be used to measure the total length in the bridge image a few posts back.

There is no better way of doing this, since there is very little info on the Auerstadt. Do we need someone who owns an SV-51 scale model to do this?

I made this model using the status display on the sub´s bridge, for some reason the ship in that display looks slim, not like the fat ass submarine we see in the floating scene, but once again I think is the same conflict between drawn and CG.

Edited December 3, 2006 by op4_delta

[op4_delta]

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated

[Scream Man]

Ive just read through this whole thread, and i just want to say its been fascinating reading. thanx for all the technical info all of u, i love reading this kind of stuff.

[Skull-1]

The Asuka´s flightdeck has less space to park aircraft than a Nimitz carrier, one reason is the large island and it´s silos to house the Cheyenne CIWS destroids the other is that parked aircraft increase the radar echoes, specially if they are not stealthy, like the S-3 vikings and the SeaHawk helicopters.

Considering satellites track battle groups with regularity--not to mention long-range acoustic sensors--I'm not sure stealth from radar is much or an issue. The island and the hull sides of the ship themselves will give quite a radar paint.

As for parking space... This is fairly doctrinal within the Japanese Navy from the days of World War II. They did not utilize deck parks like the US Navy did/does. Hence their cyclic ops rate was far slower than their American counterparts.

As Tulley and Pearsall noted in "Shattered Sword," the slower cyclic ops rate dictated by the Japanese doctrine of hangar parks instead of deck parks was a primary contributor to their failure to launch a strike before the American raids destroyed three of their carriers at Midway.

VTOLs can help speed up the cycle to some degree, but you still need a place to arm and refuel. The flightdeck is perhaps the best place to do it for numerous reasons. Decreasing your flight deck's size comes at a cost.

Edited December 26, 2006 by Skull-1

[Coota0]

Considering satellites track battle groups with regularity--not to mention long-range acoustic sensors

It's a big ocean and there are only so many satellites out there. Satellites can be confused by weather allowing a ship it is tracking to slip away. Anything but a geosynchronous satellite is continually in movement so if another satellite isn't there to pick up coverage coverage is lost. Geosynchronous satellites stay over ne point so once the ships move out of the area another satellite would still have to pick up coverage. All of this talk of Satellites is assuming there are some still up there and that we have the facilities to launch satellites. Since at least the early 80's we've had ASAT missiles (anti-satellite missiles) that can be laucnhed from an F-15 to knock down Russian satellites. I would also assume that launch facilities would be hit too,for example a sub surfacing off the coast of Florida could flatten Cape Canaveral.

Long range acoustics are nice, but they can only give you a vague idea of what is going on. You could be tracking a carrier or a tanker. Long range acoustics don't give you all the intel you need.

All of this is assuming today's technology when we know in Macross they have much better technology. You need multiple platforms to track enemy formations and using Radar from an aircraft would be one of the methods, as well as satellites and the use of subs to track enemy formations.

[Skull-1]

Stealth is not an issue for a CVN. Anyone close enough to paint you with radar is dead any way. At least with current technology.