Robotech and HG license debates

[JB0]

Who?

What?

Where?

...

Huh?

[Zinjo]

Indeed. HG's official stance as of late, however, is that they own exclusive rights to the entire franchise, be it toys, animation, line art, or anything else.

Which is a far cry from their original standpoint of not even having the rights to DYRL, or the ability to make derivative works using Macross(look at Robotech 2 and the makeovers all the characters underwent. Poor Britai...)

326304[/snapback]

A pretty bold statement considering Anchor Bay is the parent company of Manga Ent. and they hold the undisputed rights to both Mac + and Mac 2...

[Radd]

Um...I'd reccomend reading more of the thread before ressurecting it without anything new. A big part of why this thread is 55 pages is because things like this seem to get brought up again and again.

[Zinjo]

Um...I'd reccomend reading more of the thread before ressurecting it without anything new. A big part of why this thread is 55 pages is because things like this seem to get brought up again and again.

343010[/snapback]

My bad. Saw the first page and since it only went 5 pgs, mistakenly assumed it was a short thread.

[JB0]

Indeed. HG's official stance as of late, however, is that they own exclusive rights to the entire franchise, be it toys, animation, line art, or anything else.

Which is a far cry from their original standpoint of not even having the rights to DYRL, or the ability to make derivative works using Macross(look at Robotech 2 and the makeovers all the characters underwent. Poor Britai...)

326304[/snapback]

A pretty bold statement considering Anchor Bay is the parent company of Manga Ent. and they hold the undisputed rights to both Mac + and Mac 2...

343006[/snapback]

While it's been dealt with before...

HG's claming that they were massively undermanned and didn't notice those getting released, or they would've sued. US law won't let you ignore it for a decade, THEN start suing.

Of course, Mac2 was originally released while they were in their prime and merchandising Robotech for all it was worth, so teh argument doesn't really hold water.

[Skullsixx]

Someone just needs to buy out HG and put an end to this crap! That way us fans can benefit. Wishful thinking...

[Pat Payne]

Someone just needs to buy out HG and put an end to this crap! That way us fans can benefit. Wishful thinking...

345332[/snapback]

Things aren't always that easy, Skullsixx. Like it or not, businesses are very rarely intrested purely and solely in benefitting the fans. Their main concern is making a living/profit. If anime companies were interested in serving the fans' needs, for instance, Funimation would have looked the other way on grey-market imports from Kinokuniya of the FMA soundtrack, or 4Kids would have released an uncut One Piece. The fans' concerns are important (they thouroghly reject them at the company's peril) but cannot be paramount.

A good in-depth example of this is the KITE controversy. For years, fans (I am not one) had clamored for an uncut version of the OAV. The problem was that Media Blasters felt they could not provide one because of a scene where one character is raping a young girl. This in my opinion, was a sensible and even applaudable decision. Under the law at the time, such depictions were legally perilous, and would have cost at the very least, millions in legal fees to Media Blasters to defend against obscenity charges at every level (Fed, state, city). At worst, it would have been the end of the company and a black eye to all anime distributors and the hobby in general. In that situation, they COULDN'T cater to the fans' desire, because it was potential fiscal suicide.

As with the HG controversy, OTOH, I'm mellowing a bit to them. Only a bit, though. They seem to be no longer denying the very existence of Macross, Mospeada and Southern Cross and are not shoving Robotech only down our throats. I want my Yammies, and I can have them (paying through the nose, though), and I can see DYRL (although not on a R1 release yet or any time in the concievable future ). I still have issues with their business practices, but as long as we don't have RT.com lurkers coming over here and fighting to keep Robotech from somehow disappearing in favor of the original three shows, and so long as they don't try another round of C&D letters, I'm content now to conclude a truce with them.

[bsu legato]

They seem to be no longer denying the very existence of Macross, Mospeada and Southern Cross and are not shoving Robotech only down our throats.

345592[/snapback]

Why deny them when they can double dip (and dare I suggest triple-dip?) them? I think that the Macross ver 2.0 DVDs are proof enough of that. Can a dubbed version of Mospeada be far behind (and yes, a dub of SC for 1BRD trailing a distant third)?

[j_wong00]

They seem to be no longer denying the very existence of Macross, Mospeada and Southern Cross and are not shoving Robotech only down our throats.

345592[/snapback]

Why deny them when they can double dip (and dare I suggest triple-dip?) them? I think that the Macross ver 2.0 DVDs are proof enough of that. Can a dubbed version of Mospeada be far behind (and yes, a dub of SC for 1BRD trailing a distant third)?

345676[/snapback]

I think the offical term is now called "multiple bites at the apple".

Most of the rest of world call it screwing your audience.

[JB0]

Someone just needs to buy out HG and put an end to this crap! That way us fans can benefit. Wishful thinking...

345332[/snapback]

Things aren't always that easy, Skullsixx. Like it or not, businesses are very rarely intrested purely and solely in benefitting the fans. Their main concern is making a living/profit.

I thought there was an implied "one of us" in his statement.

If WE bought HG, it would cater to the fans.

...

At least until catering to the fans ceased to be a viable business model. Then we'd have to start increasing brand awareness(educating the Robotechies), and branching out into other products.

[Skullsixx]

Thanx for the insight Pat Payne. I understand what you are saying. It just bums me out that we the "fans" pretty much get screwed as far as pricing and availability due to HG's practices. I'm glad that we have sites and forums like this to express our views. I guess what I had posted was wishful thinking, especially with the development of films like "Superman Returns" and "King Kong" being handled by filmmakers that are true fans. Even the remade Battlestar Galactica, which at first was not welcomed by the old hard core fans has achieved much success. I would just love to see Macross made available to the worldwide market in it's truest and purest form for those of us who want it. Hey, if you like RT, good luck to ya, and enjoy. But my point being that us Macross Purists are stuck with high price imports, or HK copies with bad subs. I guess ya gotta do what ya gotta do...

[valk1j]

Interesting news about HG

Link

"Corriere della Sera reported on Thursday that prosecutors had this week frozen some 100 million euros in Swiss accounts of one of the accused, producer Farouk Agama, in the largest international seizure to date by Italian authorities".

According to the main media outlets in Italy that have been covering this high profile case since early this year, this Farouk Agrama is also known as "Frank" Agrama, head of Harmony Gold, mentioned by the Corriere newsaper as "produttore cinematografico californiano di origine egiziana Farouk 'Frank' Agrama" ("Californian movie producer of egyptian origin Farouk 'Frank' Agrama").

Agrama is also referred to by this daily as "'socio occulto' di Silvio Berlusconi" ("Berlusconi's 'hidden partner'").

Edited December 9, 2005 by valk1j

[JB0]

So HG is staffed by ACTUAL criminals? Whoda thunk?

Yeah, yeah, innocent until proven etc.

[capt.actionjackson]

Hmm... I didn't realize (or didn't care more than likely) that Frank Agrama was still at HG. Maybe we'll finally get our wish and HG will finally go belly up.

If they can prove that his profits or deals weren't legit, doesn't the US government/FBI reserve the right to shut down all of his operations? Was Frank Agrama (under the HG umbrella) the one who negotiated with Tatsunoko, and ultimately, purchase the rights to Macross?

[Sumdumgai]

May HG go belly up and all that is Macross go back to Big West, so that the gates of the west will be open for pure Macross goodness.

[JB0]

May HG  go belly up and all that is Macross go back to Big West, so that the gates of the west will be open for pure Macross goodness.

351161[/snapback]

Tatsunoko has to fold for Big West to reacquire all rights.

Remember, HG is licensed by Tatsunoko, not directly from Big West.

[cwbrown]

May HG  go belly up and all that is Macross go back to Big West, so that the gates of the west will be open for pure Macross goodness.

351161[/snapback]

Tatsunoko has to fold for Big West to reacquire all rights.

Remember, HG is licensed by Tatsunoko, not directly from Big West.

351201[/snapback]

It's a lot more complicated than that.

1. HG is co-owner with Tat. It was originally a license, but htey eventually became co-owners.

2. Even if Tat and HG fold, that doesn't mean that BW automatically get the rights. Corporation law doesn't work that way. The assets of the company are distributed to the shareholders (i.e., Agrama and whoever are the shareholders of Tat). That, or the assets are liquidated, then distributed.

3. Even if Agrama is in trouble, that has nothing to do with HG. A company is a separate and distinct "person". If it has doesn't anything illegal, it can't be held responsible for anything Agrama might have done independently.

[waters7]

I need to clear something up...

HG is co-owner with Tat. It was originally a license, but htey eventually became co-owners.

Frank Agrahma it's not related to Tatsunoko in any way, they just formed a partership to distribute SDF Macross outside japan.

Tatsunoko only had (or still has) a licence from Big West to do this.

Tatsunoko has (and this was decided by the japanese supreme court) a copyright for the animation of SDF Macross, in other words they were the creators of the animation of SDF Macross (even if we don't like it).

In business practice, because pretty much the animation itself it's based on ideas and concepts owned by Big West/Studio Nue, Tatsunoko it's not doing a new show based on Macross because of several legal & financial reasons.

Harmony Gold has been able to maintain their claim that hey own everything related to Macross outside Japan, because nobody has stepped up to the plate to challenge them in court. Until the memo (that HG uses to justify their ownership of Macross) becomes public, we are going to be in the black about how much did Tatsunoko pass to HG and if they really include anything related to Macross.

Regards...

[Pat Payne]

Interesting news about HG

Link

"Corriere della Sera reported on Thursday that prosecutors had this week frozen some 100 million euros in Swiss accounts of one of the accused, producer Farouk Agama, in the largest international seizure to date by Italian authorities".

According to the main media outlets in Italy that have been covering this high profile case since early this year, this Farouk Agrama is also known as "Frank" Agrama, head of Harmony Gold, mentioned by the Corriere newsaper as "produttore cinematografico californiano di origine egiziana Farouk 'Frank' Agrama" ("Californian movie producer of egyptian origin Farouk 'Frank' Agrama").

Agrama is also referred to by this daily as "'socio occulto' di Silvio Berlusconi" ("Berlusconi's 'hidden partner'").

350906[/snapback]

I can't see the article, and the only other one on Google News isn't coming up either. What did Agrama do in connection with Berlusconi? And will it be enough to give them the commuppance trhey deserve for shady (but ultimately legit) business practices with regards to Macross and other properties?

Further, if HG goes into recivership or collapses over the charges against Agrama (assuming they're sufficiently bad such as trying to subvert the Italian Government), how would this help or hinder the rumored sale of HG to ADV? And whither the Macross license?

[JB0]

May HG  go belly up and all that is Macross go back to Big West, so that the gates of the west will be open for pure Macross goodness.

351161[/snapback]

Tatsunoko has to fold for Big West to reacquire all rights.

Remember, HG is licensed by Tatsunoko, not directly from Big West.

351201[/snapback]

It's a lot more complicated than that.

1. HG is co-owner with Tat. It was originally a license, but htey eventually became co-owners.

2. Even if Tat and HG fold, that doesn't mean that BW automatically get the rights. Corporation law doesn't work that way. The assets of the company are distributed to the shareholders (i.e., Agrama and whoever are the shareholders of Tat). That, or the assets are liquidated, then distributed.

3. Even if Agrama is in trouble, that has nothing to do with HG. A company is a separate and distinct "person". If it has doesn't anything illegal, it can't be held responsible for anything Agrama might have done independently.

351291[/snapback]

Forgot about 1.

2 depends, as I understand things.

But Big West has an interest in purchasing it themselves anyways, so they'd pr'ly make a strong effort to get whatever Macross-related stuff showed up for sale.

3 is, strictly speaking, true. But major shakeups in the leadership tend to not be good for business.

Interesting news about HG

Link

"Corriere della Sera reported on Thursday that prosecutors had this week frozen some 100 million euros in Swiss accounts of one of the accused, producer Farouk Agama, in the largest international seizure to date by Italian authorities".

According to the main media outlets in Italy that have been covering this high profile case since early this year, this Farouk Agrama is also known as "Frank" Agrama, head of Harmony Gold, mentioned by the Corriere newsaper as "produttore cinematografico californiano di origine egiziana Farouk 'Frank' Agrama" ("Californian movie producer of egyptian origin Farouk 'Frank' Agrama").

Agrama is also referred to by this daily as "'socio occulto' di Silvio Berlusconi" ("Berlusconi's 'hidden partner'").

350906[/snapback]

I can't see the article, and the only other one on Google News isn't coming up either. What did Agrama do in connection with Berlusconi? And will it be enough to give them the commuppance trhey deserve for shady (but ultimately legit) business practices with regards to Macross and other properties?

Basically...

Agrama bought movie TV rights cheap. Berlusconi bought them expensive from Agrama. And then they split the diffrence.

Which is stupid until you realize Berlusconi was using this as a way to avoid paying taxes on 275 million dollars of income(plus whatever tax breaks he got for his fraudulent business expenses).

Further, if HG goes into recivership or collapses over the charges against Agrama (assuming they're sufficiently bad such as trying to subvert the Italian Government), how would this help or hinder the rumored sale of HG to ADV?

It would be good for ADV. This sort of thing tends to make companies worth a lot less.

And whither the Macross license?

Right where it is now. With a big question mark over it.

Presumably ADV would get the license if they bought HG.

How ADV would proceeed to handle it is anyone's guess.

[waters7]

How ADV would proceeed to handle it is anyone's guess

If current practice from ADV of their current licenceses are any indication, then they will probably explore a way to bring more Big West licenced stuff from Japan, but we have to consider that Toy "we make crappie versions" nami might have a licence that might extend beyond HG's ability to market any Macross related stuff with any other company. So in other words, even if HG goes the way of disco music, Toynami's current licence might be carried over to ADV.

Regards...

[Pat Payne]

How ADV would proceeed to handle it is anyone's guess

If current practice from ADV of their current licenceses are any indication, then they will probably explore a way to bring more Big West licenced stuff from Japan, but we have to consider that Toy "we make crappie versions" nami might have a licence that might extend beyond HG's ability to market any Macross related stuff with any other company. So in other words, even if HG goes the way of disco music, Toynami's current licence might be carried over to ADV.

Regards...

351403[/snapback]

Perhaps, although if the license issuer goes out of business, doesn't that mean that the license becomes null and void as the issuing party no longer exists? For instance, let's say I were to obtain a license for "Wacky Weeble Wacer" or something from Japan. I license another company to make toys for the program. then either I or the original Japanese company went under, there would be no company to back up the validity of the license. So Toynami may be holding a worthless piece of paper, and it would be up to ADV to decide whether they want to issue a new and valid license to them.

ANd it's looking right now like HG may or may not be involved in the thing. If I read that synopsis right, that Agrama basically pulled the same schtick that got Randy Cunningham in trouble. It has overtones of buying political influence, which means that Agrama's troubles are only beginning (as are Berlusconi's if they can prove that there was a quid-pro-quo in the arrangement). But as for HG as a whole, they'd probably have to prove (and INAL, so any legal minds out there, feel free to correct me) that the company either was involved or stood to benefit, and even then it's a hard road to hoe, as they could possibly cut Agrama loose to twist in the wind so as to protect Harmony Gold.

[waters7]

Perhaps, although if the license issuer goes out of business, doesn't that mean that the license becomes null and void as the issuing party no longer exists? For instance, let's say I were to obtain a license for "Wacky Weeble Wacer" or something from Japan. I license another company to make toys for the program. then either I or the original Japanese company went under, there would be no company to back up the validity of the license. So Toynami may be holding a worthless piece of paper, and it would be up to ADV to decide whether they want to issue a new and valid license to them

Well, going out of business it's a totally different situation than being bought by somebody else. In this case, I believed that it was mentioned that HG was going to be sold to ADV. When you purchase a company or a fraction of it (I doubt it that ADV would be interested in HG's real state side of the business), you are purchasing all of their agreements, licenses, even their employees from that company. Then you can decide if you (as the new owner) want to continue the agreements, licenses, partnerships of the previous managament. If you decide to continue the relationships all remains the same, if you decide not to keep the relationship then you can go with a buy out option. If the company goes bankrupt or dissapears for any reason othen than because they are being sold, then the game plan changes completly. This situation will apply to your statement, but unfortunately, I do not believe that Harmony Gold it's going out of business yet, even if it's owner goes to jail (look to what happened to Martha Stewart).

Regards...

[Pat Payne]

Sorry, about that, Waters, I misread your post.

[waters7]

Sorry, about that, Waters, I misread your post

Don't worry about it

We are on the same boat here, so let's hope that HG one day will vanish forever so we can all have Yamatos at cheap crazy prices...

regards...

Edited December 12, 2005 by waters7

[wrylac]

I hate taxes, but breaking the law is contemptable. If he did it, he should go down.

[Duke Togo]

Wait, who broke what law?

[Pat Payne]

Wait, who broke what law?

353885[/snapback]

Frank Agrama, head of HG may have violated anti-bribery laws in Italy based on shady TV licences he sold to Silvio Berlusconi.

[azrael]

Wait, who broke what law?

353885[/snapback]

From JB0,

Agrama(HG's CEO or president) bought movie TV rights cheap. Berlusconi (Prime Minister of Italy) bought them expensive from Agrama. And then they split the diffrence.

Which is stupid until you realize Berlusconi was using this as a way to avoid paying taxes on 275 million dollars of income(plus whatever tax breaks he got for his fraudulent business expenses).

Italian authorities decided to freeze the Swiss account of Agarama. Berlusconi will most likely get tax fraud if it holds true. If Agrama is included as an accomplice, then he might be subject to money laundering problems. There probably is some tax evasion problems in there as well but we will just have to wait and see if any indictments come down.

Edited December 21, 2005 by azrael

[azrael]

double post. whoops.

Edited December 21, 2005 by azrael

[Duke Togo]

Hmm, well, that's wasn't too bright of him.

[JB0]

Hmm, well, that's wasn't too bright of him.

354084[/snapback]

He did it almost 2 decades ago. And it made him very wealthy(that wealth is what made his current political power possible). He didn't know he was gonna become el presidente.

[MEMO1DOMINION]

He did it almost 2 decades ago. And it made him very wealthy(that wealth is what made his current political power possible). He didn't know he was gonna become el presidente.

ACTUALLY, HE FELT THE HEAT COMING..WHAT BETTER WAY TO PARDON YOURSELF THAN BEING PRESIDENT.

HE HA SBEEN UNDER ATTACK FROM OTHER PARTY'S AGAINST HIM. SO THIS ATTACK IS NOTHING NEW FOR HIM, OR HIS "FRIENDS". NOTHING NEW THAN POLITICAL ALIGATIONS.

SAME THAT GOES HERE IN U.S WITH CURRENT PRESIDENT......

EX:

MEMOGATE, SKIPPING SERVICE, LEFTIS NEWS AND SO ON.

[azrael]

MEMO1DOMINION, you can turn the caps lock off....

[wrylac]

lol, you don't know MEMO too well do you.