JsARCLIGHT Posted June 12, 2005 Posted June 12, 2005 Stupid question: Could Luke just have been "playing to Jabba's realm of experience"? I would think a crime boss would not even listen to someone who did not threaten or speak angrily at them. I always though Luke was basically "playing on the gangster's level" in that whole part of the movie. Luke knew Jabba would only react and respond to force, money and threats. So he shows up, chokes some people, makes some threats and plays the part of the "heavy" to try to intimidate Jabba. When all a person reacts to are heavy handed ultimatums then that is what you deal in. On some level it could also be argued that Luke knew Jabba would not respond to deals and ulitmatums and that he used the force and forsaw that he was going to have to fight Jabba anyway. I can believe that angle when you listen to the tone of his voice on some of the ultimatums he delivers... he is almost saying them just to get it over with rather than put real emphasis behind them to try to "make them work". Either side of the road I always saw Luke as being opportunistic rather than evil in those scenes, playing to an angle he thought Jabba would cut a deal with him on.
Duke Togo Posted June 12, 2005 Posted June 12, 2005 I thought Luke came off as arrogant and cocky, almost as if he was looking forward to doing violence.
EXO Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 I thought Luke came off as arrogant and cocky, almost as if he was looking forward to doing violence. I just see him as someone who led a boring life and dreamed of adventure, then got more than he bargained for.
Opus Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 I've got another wacky out-of-the-box theory for you. Maybe Luke wears black and kicks ass because he is the balance to the force that was forseen in the prophecies. The Jedi were too good, the Sith too bad, but Luke walks right down the middle keeping traits and abilities of both.
Max Jenius Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 But wasn't Luke supposed to be a different kind of Jedi anyway? Also, did you happen to forget how often the Jedi are involved in "aggresive negotiations?"
Mr March Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 Stupid question:Could Luke just have been "playing to Jabba's realm of experience"? I would think a crime boss would not even listen to someone who did not threaten or speak angrily at them. I always though Luke was basically "playing on the gangster's level" in that whole part of the movie. Luke knew Jabba would only react and respond to force, money and threats. So he shows up, chokes some people, makes some threats and plays the part of the "heavy" to try to intimidate Jabba. When all a person reacts to are heavy handed ultimatums then that is what you deal in. On some level it could also be argued that Luke knew Jabba would not respond to deals and ulitmatums and that he used the force and forsaw that he was going to have to fight Jabba anyway. I can believe that angle when you listen to the tone of his voice on some of the ultimatums he delivers... he is almost saying them just to get it over with rather than put real emphasis behind them to try to "make them work". Either side of the road I always saw Luke as being opportunistic rather than evil in those scenes, playing to an angle he thought Jabba would cut a deal with him on. I've also thought about the Jabba encounter this way myself. I've felt that Luke was just "going through the motions," already beleiving that he would have to destroy Jabba and his cronnies. The reason he gave Jabba a chance was to hold out the slim hope that Jabba might see value or some profit in a trade with Luke. But I believe Luke knew all along Jabba was most likely to simply stay true to his vile nature and attempt to possess everything he wanted rather than negotiate. Luke sent the R2-D2 to infiltrate Jabba's palace, lightsaber secretly stowed inside R2-D2 as a planned surprise strike all along. I don't beleive Luke was dealing unfairly or scheming per se. I felt his plan was more akin to properly managing the circumstances in which he knew he could deal with Jabba. Luke knew his enemy, understood Jabba and how Jabba thought, and planned his options for rescuing Solo in such a way as to take advantage of Jabba's weaknesses.
Hurin Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 You don't like answering questions because you can rarely back up what you say. I believe I just did above. Please see first line in this post. Oh, and the other twenty-five questions. What does that have to do with me backing up what I say or not. I clearly did above. Please see first line in this post. It contains a question. One you can't/won't answer. Among links to about twenty-five other questions and/or counterpoints that you can't address because they demonstrate that your position is untenable.
Duke Togo Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 The Jedi only kill in defense. How many times do I have to say this for you to get it through your thick skull? Is your head that far up your ass that you can't read a simple statement like that? I read your first fartin' sentence everytime you've posted that stupid link, and my answer is still the same. Its the same goddamned reason Mace couldn't (shouldn't have tried to) kill Palpatine in Sith. That is why Anakin stopped him. The Jedi don't do that.
Hurin Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 Please see first line in this post. It contains a question that your little tirade there does nothing to address (I ask how a death threat is being made if Luke is offering money to Jaba for Solo. . . you answer that Jedi only kill in self defense. . . which, even if it answered the question --it doesn't--, doesn't hold water because Luke is acting in defense of his friend (Solo) and they are further on the "defensive" when Jabba refuses to negotiate --as expected-- and attempts to execute them all.). In that thread, you'll also find links to about twenty-five other questions and/or counterpoints that you can't address because they demonstrate that your position is untenable.
Max Jenius Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 Togo and Hurin are really dragging this discussion way off topic...
Sumdumgai Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 But wasn't Luke supposed to be a different kind of Jedi anyway?Also, did you happen to forget how often the Jedi are involved in "aggresive negotiations?" Damn, you beat me to the quote Max! I guess the way Luke acts differs depending from your point of view.
Noyhauser Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 Togo and Hurin are really dragging this discussion way off topic... Duke Togo taking a discussion off topic??!?! Thats never happened before Just for the record, watching him get his @ss handed to him by Hurin is amusing. Kinda like watching a pinyata getting the crap beaten out of it.
Duke Togo Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 Please see first line in I've seen the first line in the post, toolbag. Money or death is not the Jedi way.
Hurin Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 (edited) Please see first line in I've seen the first line in the post, toolbag. Money or death is not the Jedi way. Wow. . . I don't believe it. You actually made an attempt at finally answering the question. Of course, it's not really an intellectually honest attempt since you know already that you've just managed to swerve into a whole host of other problems. So, your words: "money or death". . . so you concede that Jabba is being given a choice. And, even though I, Max, jsARCLIGHT, and Mr. March have all pointed out that he is practicing classic Jedi "aggressive negotiations" with a vile gangster (and must therefore be direct and not show signs of weakness). . . you just ignore this and, after stone-walling for a while, move on to your next irrelevant or previously invalidated point. But, you know what? Thinking about it now, I just may have to agree with you. Hmmmm, I think it may just be un-Jedi-like to begin a negotiation like that. He can't just barge in there unannounced and say: I am taking Captain Solo and his friends. You can either profit by this, or be destroyed. It's your choice. But I warn you not to underestimate my powers How arrogant! He'd only be justified in behaving like that if Jabba had rudely rebuffed him or refused to even meet with him! If I were Luke, I'd probably send a message first. You know, it's always polite to call first! Then, in that message, I'd flatter Jabba a bit. I'd also make it clear that I understand that Jabba is upset and has a point of view. Then I'd offer to negotiate with Jabba openly while praising his wisdom. It would also be a nice touch to subtley tie a compliment of Jabba's wisdom to a peaceful negotiated outcome. Finally, I think I'd close the message by offering a very nice gift. That would be a text-book diplomatic invitation to negotiate! Oh wait. . . that's what Luke did! Greetings exalted one. Allow me to introduce myself. I am Luke Skywalker. Jedi Knight and friend of Captain Solo. I know that you are powerful, Mighty Jabba, and that your anger with captain Solo must be equally powerful. I seek an audience with your Greatness to bargain for Solo's life. With your wisdom, I'm sure that we can work out an arrangment that will be mutually beneficial and enable us to avoid any unpleasant confrontation. As a token of my goodwill, I present to you a gift. . .these two droids. Both are hard working, and will serve you well. Man. You're screwed! Oh, and don't forget this post with another twenty-four (I gave you partial credit for the one you attempted to answer above) points like that one that you conveniently choose to ignore. Edited June 13, 2005 by Hurin
mikeszekely Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 Sixth time: Doesn't offering money in any way negate the "death threat". . . it's not a death threat if you offer a fair alternative. Ineed, it's not even "fair" from Luke's point of view since he's essentially paying ransom. No, it doesn't. Even if the results are the same, the intent is different. A Jedi might say, "Let's negotiate. If you won't accept a deal, though, I'll have to take my friends back, by force if necessary." The intent is to free the friends, and if it comes to violence, to strike down no more than necessary, in self-defense. Luke was more along the lines of, "Let's negotiate. But if you won't accept my offer, I'll kill you and take my friends back anyway." The intent is more as if Jabba doesn't deal, Luke will go out of his way to kill Jabba in an overt act of vengeance. Hurin, you know I'm not in the "Luke brought balance to the Force by being both light and dark" camp or the camp that believes balance in the Force means equality of Light and Dark Side. But Luke was definately walking a path close to the Dark Side, hero character or not, and he definately behaved in ways that were decidedly un-Jedi at times.
Hurin Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 Hurin, you know I'm not in the "Luke brought balance to the Force by being both light and dark" camp or the camp that believes balance in the Force means equality of Light and Dark Side. But Luke was definately walking a path close to the Dark Side, hero character or not, and he definately behaved in ways that were decidedly un-Jedi at times. Yes, I agree that he's not a perfect Jedi. But as I said in my last post, Luke does do exactly what you said he should do here: A Jedi might say, "Let's negotiate. If you won't accept a deal, though, I'll have to take my friends back, by force if necessary." The intent is to free the friends, and if it comes to violence, to strike down no more than necessary, in self-defense. Here's Luke: Greetings exalted one. Allow me to introduce myself. I am Luke Skywalker. Jedi Knight and friend of Captain Solo. I know that you are powerful, Mighty Jabba, and that your anger with captain Solo must be equally powerful. I seek an audience with your Greatness to bargain for Solo's life. With your wisdom, I'm sure that we can work out an arrangment that will be mutually beneficial and enable us to avoid any unpleasant confrontation. As a token of my goodwill, I present to you a gift. . .these two droids. Both are hard working, and will serve you well. The only thing he did differently from what you say is that he and his friends blew up the sail barge and killed more people than was probably absolutely necessary. But, then again, it was five or six of them against an entire army of Jabba's henchmen and flunkies. The easiest way to stop the battle and ensure victory was to just blow it up. And, I believe that Luke was justified in killing Jabba. Had he not done so, they would have just been back to square one with Han --and now all of them-- being on the run from Jabba for the rest of their lives. Not to mention that Jabba was the most vile ganster in the Galaxy (picture our worst Sopranos/Goodfellas/Scarface type gangster multiplied by a thousand). Anyways, it's a shame you posted before Togo. You gave him the cover he needed to just give one of his one sentence replies that has already been refuted. It helps him avoid coming to terms with the fact that he has gotten his butt kicked.
do not disturb Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 Yelping is one thing. Being all "You failed your highness. I'm a Jedi like my father before me," and saying it arrogantly after tossing away your only source of protection is another. What gets me isn't that he yelps and screams, it's that he cries for help from his Dad. not really a fair example....why? because none of us knew then, that the ligthsaber could block a force lighting attack. we were only privy to this info in AOTC when obiwan absorbed dooku's. that was the first time it was seen on screen. as far as his statement, i think it was more of luke manipulating Vader to attack the emperor. the statement also lets Vader know that luke truly loves his father and will not kill him under any circumstance, that he would not fall into the same peril as his father. if anything, i'd say thats honorable, before i called it arrogance.
do not disturb Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 and as far as how jedi's were supposed to act or be in the OT.... they never went into that in great detail in any of the OT flicks, so its hard and unfair to make arguements against the OT buy using NT facts(if you want to call them facts even thought were discussing fiction).
Duke Togo Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 It helps him avoid coming to terms with the fact that he has gotten his butt kicked. Um, how is that, exactly?
Duke Togo Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 and as far as how jedi's were supposed to act or be in the OT....they never went into that in great detail in any of the OT flicks, so its hard and unfair to make arguements against the OT buy using NT facts(if you want to call them facts even thought were discussing fiction). OT, PT, they are all part of the one Saga. The Saga rules them all.
Hurin Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 It helps him avoid coming to terms with the fact that he has gotten his butt kicked. Um, how is that, exactly? Here. And don't miss the link at the end for more. Enjoy!
Hurin Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 I'm not seeing it. We know. That's what makes it even better.
Duke Togo Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 So, you are conceding the fact that Luke acted very un-Jedi like making his threats against Jabba?
Ghadrack Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 After reading this thread a certain adage about arguing on the internet comes to mind..... Even if you win you are still........ Back on topic, if they remake them I think they should have the president of HG play Greedo because the name fits and I would like to watch Han Solo bust a cap in that ass!
mikeszekely Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 Anyways, it's a shame you posted before Togo. You gave him the cover he needed to just give one of his one sentence replies that has already been refuted. Sorry, Hurin. But like I said, I'm not trying to make Luke out to be a Jedi/Sith hyrbid or anything. But I do think that it's relevant that Luke, for all the good he was trying to do, was walking perilously close to the Dark Side for portions of Empire and Jedi. This, combined with a few sprinklings of other tidbits that were dropped in the story but had no real immediate relevance, seemed to be foreshadowing, in case Lucas did decided to do a sequel trilogy.
Hurin Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 (edited) Just for the record, watching him get his @ss handed to him by Hurin is amusing. Kinda like watching a pinyata getting the crap beaten out of it. Hehe. The thing is. . . he's not really arguing this. He's just trying to piss me off and carrying on a grudge from waaaaay back when. But I find amusement in pointing out how poorly he is doing so while also refuting his "arguments." I mean, if he were trying to make a cogent argument here, that would be embarassing for him and I'd just have to write him off as being at least functionally retarded. But he's not really trying, so he's probably not retarded. He's just trying to see how far he can take this, and how much he can piss me off. But, he just doesn't understand that I don't mind. . . So, while he is indeed getting his "@ss handed to him". . . it's not in the way that is most obvious, or in the way that he thinks. But thank you for posting that. I can stop now. H P.S. AgentONE should be dropping by any moment now to say: "Your insight is wonderful Duke Togo. I agree with everything you said." In an attempt to get things rolling again. Edited June 13, 2005 by Hurin
do not disturb Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 and as far as how jedi's were supposed to act or be in the OT....they never went into that in great detail in any of the OT flicks, so its hard and unfair to make arguements against the OT buy using NT facts(if you want to call them facts even thought were discussing fiction). OT, PT, they are all part of the one Saga. The Saga rules them all. you see, your statement would make sense if not for 2 of the following reasons... 1. they made episodes 4, 5 and 6 first! 2. the PT and OT don't really blend together all that well. if the 2 above weren't true, i would be all for your statement, but unfortunately until you disprove the facts above, i cannot see things your way. BTW, i view episodes 1, 2, and 3 as one trilogy and episdoes 4, 5, and 6 as a completely different trilogy. i do not view them nor consider them a saga as there is too much BS involved in linking them all.
Duke Togo Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 and as far as how jedi's were supposed to act or be in the OT....they never went into that in great detail in any of the OT flicks, so its hard and unfair to make arguements against the OT buy using NT facts(if you want to call them facts even thought were discussing fiction). OT, PT, they are all part of the one Saga. The Saga rules them all. you see, your statement would make sense if not for 2 of the following reasons... 1. they made episodes 4, 5 and 6 first! 2. the PT and OT don't really blend together all that well. if the 2 above weren't true, i would be all for your statement, but unfortunately until you disprove the facts above, i cannot see things your way. BTW, i view episodes 1, 2, and 3 as one trilogy and episdoes 4, 5, and 6 as a completely different trilogy. i do not view them nor consider them a saga as there is too much BS involved in linking them all. Just because you think that doesn't make it reality. the reality is all 6 Episodes are 1 complete Saga. Period, end of story. You have to look at it as a whole, because that is what it is.
promethuem5 Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 I thought that Lucas had originally intended to have said sequal trilogy, depicting life after the fall of the Empire.... power does love a vacuum... but didn't they end up doing most of this thru the books and all that EU crap?
Duke Togo Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 That's great, Hurin. Seems everybody with any amount of reasoning sees that Luke is acting out of character as a Jedi. You keep posting your same, broken response. Jedi don't threaten to kill. There is no excuse, there is no way to balance this. "Destroy" and "die" are not terms a Jedi uses when dealing with others, especially not as a threat. "He wil join us or die, my master" "There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you." - Darth Vader "You can either profit by this or be destroyed." "Jabba! This is your last chance. Free us, or die." - Luke Skywalker "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
JKeats Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 That's great, Hurin. Seems everybody with any amount of reasoning sees that Luke is acting out of character as a Jedi. You keep posting your same, broken response.Jedi don't threaten to kill. There is no excuse, there is no way to balance this. "Destroy" and "die" are not terms a Jedi uses when dealing with others, especially not as a threat. "He wil join us or die, my master" "There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you." - Darth Vader "You can either profit by this or be destroyed." "Jabba! This is your last chance. Free us, or die." - Luke Skywalker "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - Obi-Wan Kenobi I dunno, the Jedi (PT) don't really seem to have a problem with killing their enemies. After Dooku's death in ROTS, Obi-Wan congratulates Anakin for killing him. Later in the film, Yoda determines that he and Obi-Wan must "destroy" the Sith (I assume "destroy" means "shank da bitches"). The Jedi may not have come right out and threatened their enemies with death ("I'm gonna cut you, bitch" would be an un-Jedi-like quote) but they don't seem to mind slicing and dicing their foes to win the fight. Lightsabers don't come with a stun-mode.
Sumdumgai Posted June 13, 2005 Posted June 13, 2005 Yelping is one thing. Being all "You failed your highness. I'm a Jedi like my father before me," and saying it arrogantly after tossing away your only source of protection is another. What gets me isn't that he yelps and screams, it's that he cries for help from his Dad. not really a fair example....why? because none of us knew then, that the ligthsaber could block a force lighting attack. we were only privy to this info in AOTC when obiwan absorbed dooku's. that was the first time it was seen on screen. as far as his statement, i think it was more of luke manipulating Vader to attack the emperor. the statement also lets Vader know that luke truly loves his father and will not kill him under any circumstance, that he would not fall into the same peril as his father. if anything, i'd say thats honorable, before i called it arrogance. I didn't bring it up because of the lightsaber being able to block force lightning, but because it was his only weapon. To toss your only weapon away in front of a powerful enemy is freaking retarded. I think Luke is a bit too simple to think of manipulating Vader into attacking the emperor. I guess we just see things differently on this topic, but I do see where you're coming from.
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