Revenge of the Sith

[Hurin]

...even though he carries out the order ruthlessly. . . much more ruthlessly than in the movie.

Indeed. I seem to recall something about pieces of dragonmount flesh flying all around Obi-Wan?

Yeah, Cody has a large number of troopers and tanks unload on Obi-Wan with a multitude of weapons. If I recall, in the movie, a single tank fires upon him. The only thing that saves Obi-Wan is that his mount somehow senses the impending attack and turns her body to shield him. Which vindicates Obi-Wan's careful choice of a mount (with the help of the Force) a few scenes earlier.

[Stamen0083]

The only thing that saves Obi-Wan is that his mount somehow senses the impending attack and turns her body to shield him. Which vindicates Obi-Wan's careful choice of a mount (with the help of the Force) a few scenes earlier.

This is in the book, folks, so don't bother looking for it in the movie. :-P

[Warmaker]

Estacado06479 and Duke Togo, I forwarded the same PM I gave Max Jenius.

[Warmaker]

Having played and being a fan of the Knights of the Old Republic games, there is another reason why I believe the Clones turned very easily on the Jedi. Not just programming, training, or indoctrination.

In the KOTOR games, there was a huge war, the Mandalorian War, between the Old Republic and the combined Mandalorian Clans. The war was catastrophic, but the Jedi won the war for the Republic by being in some ways "un-Jedi-like." The war was a defeat for the Mandalorians that even though it was glorious even to them (they relished battle), it was a defeat that they will never recover from.

Now, Jango Fett is Mandalorian. His clone "son," Boba, would then be Mandalorian. The Clonetroopers are of course Mandalorian due to being based on Jango. Darth Tyrannus / Dooku probably had this in mind when selecting a suitable template for the Kaminoan Cloners.

The Jedi & Republic crushed the Mandalorians rougly 5000 years before The Phantom Menace. But with Revenge of the Sith, the Mandalorians get the last laugh and even the score. That's my take on it.

Plus, the Mandalorians just seemed really cool in the Star Wars background "fluff."

Edited June 2, 2005 by Warmaker

[lord_breetai]

Having played and being a fan of the Knights of the Old Republic games, there is another reason why I believe the Clones turned very easily on the Jedi. Not just programming, training, or indoctrination.

In the KOTOR games, there was a huge war, the Mandalorian War, between the Old Republic and the combined Mandalorian Clans. The war was catastrophic, but the Jedi won the war for the Republic by being in some ways "un-Jedi-like." The war was a defeat for the Mandalorians that even though it was glorious even to them (they relished battle), it was a defeat that they will never recover from.

Now, Jango Fett is Mandalorian. His clone "son," Boba, would then be Mandalorian. The Clonetroopers are of course Mandalorian due to being based on Jango. Darth Tyrannus / Dooku probably had this in mind when selecting a suitable template for the Kaminoan Cloners.

The Jedi & Republic crushed the Mandalorians rougly 5000 years before The Phantom Menace. But with Revenge of the Sith, the Mandalorians get the last laugh and even the score. That's my take on it.

Plus, the Mandalorians just seemed really cool in the Star Wars background "fluff."

Question wasn't the Mandalorian War covered at least in part in the Tales of the Jedi Comics? (note for those who don't know the Tales of the Jedi comics came before KOTOR and take place some 40 years earlier... KOTOR is ripe with references to them).

Since Lucas did help with the KOTOR comics one can probably consider them cannon, so if the Mandalorian War is in TOTJ I'd consider it cannon.

SPOILERS FOR KOTOR II

Of course I consider at least KOTOR I to be cannon too (KOTOR II I'm not so sure about... "I'm going to kill the force MWAH!")

BTW when Darth Traya talked about the Mandalorians eventually coming down to one man too easily killed by Jedi (at least in the light side ending, don't know what happens in the dark ending)... did she mean Jango (easily despatched by Mace) or the clone Boba (easily despatched by Luke... unless we follow the novels, then he's still alive).

[Seven]

Was Jango really a Mandalorian? I thought I heard that he just wore Mandalorian battle armor. Then again, whats a Mandalorian supposed to look like?

[Graham]

Pah, if Jango was Mandalorian, that means the Mandalorians were a bunch a pussies .

Graham

[wolfx]

More like Bhanta-lorian.

[Guest Bromgrev]

BTW when Darth Traya talked about the Mandalorians eventually coming down to one man too easily killed by Jedi (at least in the light side ending, don't know what happens in the dark ending)... did she mean Jango (easily despatched by Mace) or the clone Boba (easily despatched by Luke... unless we follow the novels, then he's still alive).

Of course Boba Fett lives! I mean, a thousand years is a long time in which to fix your rocket pack and make your escape. Anyway, wasn't it Han Solo who beat him? The luck is strong in that one ...

Edited June 2, 2005 by Bromgrev

[Sumdumgai]

I'm not sure that Jango realized his jet-pack was screwed until just before Mace owned him. If you watch the scene (i just noticed it recently), he stands there and shoots, then just before he gets his head lopped off the jets on his pack attempts to fire then sparks and he doesn't take off.

Maybe I'm just slow on noticing details, but that sucked for Jango. He should have bent over and fired that rocket at Mace.

[KingNor]

He should have bent over and fired that rocket at Mace.

friken ew

[lord_breetai]

Was Jango really a Mandalorian? I thought I heard that he just wore Mandalorian battle armor. Then again, whats a Mandalorian supposed to look like?

according to every source I've seen mandalorians are humans, slightly genetically enhanced(?) and bred for battle, a big warrior culture. Umm... Think the Clans from Battletech ^^;

Oh yeah Han is the one who made Boba's jetpack go off... sorry it's been ages since I've seen Jedi but not ages since I played Star Wars Trilogy arcade

[promethuem5]

Idk if this has already been discussed, but why does General Grevious have organic parts? where are they from for that matter....

[HWR MKII]

In tales of the jedi and the sith war books the Mandalore were not human. It clearly shows an alien pick up the mask of Mandalore on the moon of Duxun and say that he is now the Mandalore. Although it could be argued that the Mandalore were mulit species like the Jedi as well.

Grevious was a reptillian general that was horribly wounded in a plot by dooku. They took the remaining pieces and put him back together ala Darth Vader style. Alot of people think he was a prototype for vader so the Emporer could make sure it would work. How the emporer realised this is up to you but the Jedi and Sith both have a form of foresight.

[Prime]

In tales of the jedi and the sith war books the Mandalore were not human.

Here is what the unofficial database has to say about them:

"although xenoanthropologists disagree on whether or not this alien race was actually native to the planet Mandalore, they were in agreement that the ancient Mandalorians were a race of gray-skinned beings who were almost constantly at war. Analysis of the physiology of the ancient Mandalorians and their language pointed to the possibility that the Mandalorians were actually the descendants of the Taungs of Coruscant. What is known for sure is that the ancient Mandalorians eventually died out, and the name "Mandalorians" became a catch-all for any being - regardless of race - who adhered to the tenets of the Mandalorian shock troopers."

[Duke Togo]

In tales of the jedi and the sith war books the Mandalore were not human. It clearly shows an alien pick up the mask of Mandalore on the moon of Duxun and say that he is now the Mandalore. Although it could be argued that the Mandalore were mulit species like the Jedi as well.

So many Mandalorians were killed that they started using various species to fill their ranks. As far as I know, Mandalorians are like the Sith, there aren't actually any of their race left, but there are those who follow their path and wear their mantle.

Of course, as far as I know the "Lords of the Sith" were never Sith to begin with, they simply ruled over them. Hence their title. But, we are really dealing with the EU on all of this. Something could come out tomorrow that contridicts it all.

[HWR MKII]

I know of the disparaties between the EU and movies. Whatever happened to having conversation for conversation sake. Each time something EU is brought up someone sticks their nose in just to remind every one how the EU isnt canon and how it doesnt apply to them. The movies are the movies and the EU is EU. Since all the movies have books i consider the books canon with the rest of the EU. Whatever happens on screen can stay there and be as canon as it wants. As far as the books are concerned they are all canon with each other. Sorry to rant on this guys but it kills a conversation whenever someone spouts off ITS EU SO I DONT CARE ABOUT IT. so what its a discussion.

[zeo-mare]

Idk if this has already been discussed, but why does General Grevious have organic parts?  where are they from for that matter....

General Grevious dispite being leader of the Droid Army is not a true machine, he was originally a feared alien warrior (they never showed what he looked like)who killed tons of jedi and kept their lightsabers as trophies. he was bought to the attention of Sidious and Dooku , it is rumored that Sidious may have been the one who had his ship shot down just for the purpose of giving him his mechanical armor and turning him into the feared general we see in the Clone Wars and the third movie. another rumor is the armor was the prototype for the Darth Vader Armor and he was the testing ground for it.

Edited June 2, 2005 by zeo-mare

[Duke Togo]

Because there isn't alot of continuity in the EU. What is fact one year gets thrown away the next. Plus, there is alot of the EU that completely contridicts the Saga, which also negates it. Its just rather messy.

[Duke Togo]

Idk if this has already been discussed, but why does General Grevious have organic parts?  where are they from for that matter....

General Grevious dispite being leader of the Droid Army is not a true machine, he was originally a feared alien warrior (they never showed what he looked like)who killed tons of jedi and kept their lightsabers as trophies. he was bought to the attention of Sidious and Dooku , it is rumored that Sidious may have been the one who had his ship shot down just for the purpose of giving him his mechanical armor and turning him into the feared general we see in the Clone Wars and the third movie. another rumor is the armor was the prototype for the Darth Vader Armor and he was the testing ground for it.

There is an official picture of Grevious somewhere in his true form, you can probably find it on the SW website.

As to his armor, it wouldn't make much sense, seeing as Anakin had no need for the Darth aader suit before his battle with Obi Wan. Not only that, the cyborg Vader was far less valuable to Palpatine than the flesh and bone Vader (which is why he wanted Luke).

[Hurin]

Not only that, the cyborg Vader was far less valuable to Palpatine than the flesh and bone Vader (which is why he wanted Luke).

I really dislike Lucas's latest take on Vader (first mentioned in the Visual Guide to ep3 and repeated in an interview in Rolling Stone) that the Emperor was disappointed in Vader once he was rebuilt. That really seems to have come out of the blue. . . there is no hint of it in the novel (based on a slightly earlier screenplay by Lucas). It seems like a very recent (even to Lucas) take on Vader that I'm not sure jives well with the image of him he's developed over the past quarter-century.

Q:Even as you were building up this iconic villain, you knew the tragedy behind it.

GL: He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, "Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?" He even gets pushed around by the governors! They know the Emperor is the final word, so what happens is the same thing that happens in any corporation: Everybody worries about the top man, they don't worry about his goon. And by the time the Death Star is finished, it gives them the sense that they have a bigger, better suit than Darth Vader. In a standoff between the Death Star and Darth Vader, they have no question about who would win, and it's not this mumbo-jumbo Sith guy. So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky.

Q: He's not Satan, he just goes down to the corner and gets Satan's cigarettes.

GL: You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

There was just no hint in anything prior to these rather off-hand comments that Vader was at all limited by the machinery that keeps him alive. Now, all of a sudden, he's held back by it all. Vader was the sh*t until just a few months ago. Now, he's a disappointment, a hack, and a fool.

I still like Episode III, but I don't like Lucas's spin on Vader that (once again) I don't think he even conceived of twenty (or even three) years ago. Yes, there was always the feeling that Luke might be more powerful than Vader eventually. . . but not because of damage done to Vader, but because Luke might just be more inherently strong with the Force.

H

[HWR MKII]

One thing you have to remember about Anakin. In some way,shape, or form since EP I he has been a "slave" always calling someone master and having to do what he didnt want to. I dont know if lucas planned on a meaning like that behind his character but after looking back at all 6 films it became quite obvious.

[Duke Togo]

Not only that, the cyborg Vader was far less valuable to Palpatine than the flesh and bone Vader (which is why he wanted Luke).

I really dislike Lucas's latest take on Vader (first mentioned in the Visual Guide to ep3 and repeated in an interview in Rolling Stone) that the Emperor was disappointed in Vader once he was rebuilt. That really seems to have come out of the blue. . . there is no hint of it in the novel (based on a slightly earlier screenplay by Lucas). It seems like a very recent (even to Lucas) take on Vader that I'm not sure jives well with the image of him he's developed over the past quarter-century.

Latest take? Vader is practically a cripple in the OT. The Emperor clearly wants Luke to take Vader's place. How can you watch the OT and not see this?

[bsu legato]

Yeah, why else would the Emperor have wanted to replace Vader with Luke? This is nothing new, believe me. Even in the SW universe, being a quadruple amputee and third degree burn victim hooked up to an iron lung will take its toll on your agility.

Edited June 2, 2005 by bsu legato

[lord_breetai]

In tales of the jedi and the sith war books the Mandalore were not human. It clearly shows an alien pick up the mask of Mandalore on the moon of Duxun and say that he is now the Mandalore. Although it could be argued that the Mandalore were mulit species like the Jedi as well.

So many Mandalorians were killed that they started using various species to fill their ranks. As far as I know, Mandalorians are like the Sith, there aren't actually any of their race left, but there are those who follow their path and wear their mantle.

Of course, as far as I know the "Lords of the Sith" were never Sith to begin with, they simply ruled over them. Hence their title. But, we are really dealing with the EU on all of this. Something could come out tomorrow that contridicts it all.

Except that Lucas helped provide the groundwork for all the stuff in Tales of the Jedi, he worked with them to write the history of the Sith and Madalorians... so I very much doubt he's going to go back on it now.... (except it is Lucas),

[Hurin]

Not only that, the cyborg Vader was far less valuable to Palpatine than the flesh and bone Vader (which is why he wanted Luke).

I really dislike Lucas's latest take on Vader (first mentioned in the Visual Guide to ep3 and repeated in an interview in Rolling Stone) that the Emperor was disappointed in Vader once he was rebuilt. That really seems to have come out of the blue. . . there is no hint of it in the novel (based on a slightly earlier screenplay by Lucas). It seems like a very recent (even to Lucas) take on Vader that I'm not sure jives well with the image of him he's developed over the past quarter-century.

Latest take? Vader is practically a cripple in the OT. The Emperor clearly wants Luke to take Vader's place. How can you watch the OT and not see this?

I can watch the OT and not see Vader as a cripple because he never acts as one. In fact, he's shown as being stronger, more agile, and more skilled with a lightsaber than Luke. This is demonstrated by how he handles Luke one-handed at the beginning of the Bespin duel.

I think you guys are confusing David Prowse's real-world limitations in the suit with Vader's limitations in the fictional world. He's shown leaping, and moving with ease (again within the limitations of real-world film-making within that costume).

Why else would Palpatine want Luke? Because Luke was younger (always a bonus!), and possibly stronger in the Force than Vader. Not, IMHO, because Luke could shoot blue lightning out of his natural hands and Vader could not.

Nowhere, anywhere does it say that Vader is at all held back by his suit. In fact, most novelizations (especially the earlier EU ones such as Shadows of the Empire) go out of their way to demonstrate how quick and agile he is. If you guys have any evidence that Vader was held back by his suit that doesn't originate in the last year, I'd like to see it. The fiction up this point, if anything, had the suit enhancing his strength, if not his agility. But it certainly wasn't a liability in combat.

H

Edited June 2, 2005 by Hurin

[JKeats]

I don't ever remember thinking Vader was limited by his suit before watching the prequels and reading EU books. After just watching the OT, I was under the impression that Vader was badass: he crushed tracheas with his mind, stopped laser blasts with the palm of his hand, jumped down a flight of stairs and even took a glancing blow to the shoulder and then proceeded to chop a hand off.

I only started thinking of Vader as limited in his abilities AFTER watching the prequels, when you get an idea of how Jedi's and Sith lords moved (take the Obi-Wan VS. Maul duel). Then, I started to realize how slow Vader and Luke moved in comparison.

I agree that the Emperor wanted to replace Vader with Luke, but not because he was under the impression that Vader was a crippled loser but because Luke was younger and maybe even stronger in his abilities with the Force.

[azrael]

Even in the SW universe, being a quadruple amputee and third degree burn victim hooked up to an iron lung will take its toll on your agility.

SW universe? What about our universe???

And Vader has done pretty good. He jumped off stairs (low risers too) and landed on his feet, 10... 15 ft to the ground in Empire. Then Luke forced him off the platform that was maybe... 20 ft high and he came up standing. Then in RotJ, Luke kicked him down another set of stairs and he got back up. Vader was doing pretty good as a quadruple amputee with an iron lung all those times.

[Mr March]

When I was young and first watched the original films, Vader appeared to me as a strong, armored giant and weilder of mystical powers as opposed to someone who possessed great finess, dexterity, or skill with a blade. However, within the suspension of disbelief given to the skill level and budget of the sword fighting in the OT, Vader didn't appear to be a slouch either.

However, I can honestly say there was always strong indication that Vader was a damaged person and his condition was certainly not favorable long before the prequels. Vader's breathing was mechanically assisted and was always an obvious disability to me. In TESB we learned that Vader was horribly scarred, which is not an optimal condition. It was stated in RoTJ that he could not survive without his armor intact. Then we have Ben always commenting on Vader in a context that did not speak of impressive cybernetic power...the context spoke of "less than a man" in a twisted mechanized form. The original films never once gave me the impression that the mechanization of Vader was something he sought or that it made him more powerful.

Just my perspective on my pre-prequel feelings.

[JKeats]

However, I can honestly say there was always strong indication that Vader was a damaged person and his condition was certainly not favorable long before the prequels. Vader's breathing was mechanically assisted and was always an obvious disability to me. In TESB we learned that Vader was horribly scarred, which is not an optimal condition. It was stated in RoTJ that he could not survive without his armor intact. Then we have Ben always commenting on Vader in a context that did not speak of impressive cybernetic power...the context spoke of "less than a man" in a twisted mechanized form. The original films never once gave me the impression that the mechanization of Vader was something he sought or that it made him more powerful.

Just my perspective on my pre-prequel feelings.

Good points, I agree with you there but I still wasn't thinking that Vader was weak because of these things.

When I first watched Ep.IV, I didn't know that his breathing was mechanically assisted. For all I knew, the dude wore a space helmet that gave him freaky ventilation. But just because I learned in ROTJ that he couldn't survive without his suit didn't signify that he was a weak cripple, it just made it seem more like a mechanized monster instead of a human.

Anyways, Stealth sucks y'all.

[Hurin]

I only started thinking of Vader as limited in his abilities AFTER watching the prequels, when you get an idea of how Jedi's and Sith lords moved (take the Obi-Wan VS. Maul duel).  Then, I started to realize how slow Vader and Luke moved in comparison. 

Exactly! Actually, I think this may be Lucas's half-hearted, retroactive attempt to explain away (within the continuity) why the lightsaber action is so different between the OT and Prequels.

But, judging Vader's abilities in the OT based upon what's shown in the Prequels is a bit misleading. Everyone moves slower in the OT, not just poor crippled ol' Vader. Why is Luke fighting in a plodding, two-handed fashion if he's "all natural" and capable of so much more? Was he just being nice and didn't want to show up his dad? Was he really so poorly trained at that point that he couldn't use some of that agility that he obviously learned on Dagobah?

The answer is that everyone moves so much slower in the OT because (#1) that's how Lucas wanted it (he told the choreographer that he wanted "two-handed broadsword style" duels). And (#2), they were limited by David Prowse's suit.

The Prequels are faster and more frenetically paced because he had younger actors, an audience spoiled by Jackie Chan and expecting more than just two old people swinging broomsticks at each other, and no bulky costume limitations. Vader's armor is bionic and powered (including the eyes). Prowse's costume was just plain heavy and hard to see in.

[Hurin]

But just because I learned in ROTJ that he couldn't survive without his suit didn't signify that he was a weak cripple, it just made it seem more like a mechanized monster instead of a human.

Yeah, I agree (big surprise).

Obi-Wan's references to Vader being "more machine now than man, twisted and evil" are in response to Luke stating that there might still be good in him. Obi-Wan was clearly not addressing Vader's abilities.

We're constantly shown in SW that people can lose arms and legs and be absolutely no worse for wear. . . they just throw on a cybernetic replacement that is just as good if not stronger and better than the original. Now all of a sudden, he's crippled?

Also, keep in mind that we didn't know how many of his limbs were cybernetic until EpIII. This whole idea that he was crippled where his agility and strength are concerned seems awfully revisionist (in the most literal sense).

H

[Sundown]

Latest take? Vader is practically a cripple in the OT. The Emperor clearly wants Luke to take Vader's place. How can you watch the OT and not see this?

Now I'm curious how you can watch the OT and think Vader anything close to a cripple. Unless in your experience cripples stride around powerfully, can beat young, agile Jedis in training that are powerful in the Force in a sword fight, and have the strength and coordination to toss a Sith Lord down a shaft while they're being struck by lightning. And Vader was doing vaugely decent against Luke even in ROTJ until he cheezed him off.

We think Vader a complete gimp now only because Lucas chose to show Anakin prancing around like a ballet dancer in the prequels and because Lucas is now hooked on a type of swordfighting that emphasizes flash and speed over forms like Kendo. Even if Vader is no longer as fast as he was in his robotic body, it used to be apparent that he made up for it by his proficiency with the Force and his saber skills. The original films clearly showed that extreme agility was simply not necessary if one's power in the Force was great enough. But the prequels for all its kung-fu flash wrote all that away, and tries to ret-con everything into suggesting that everyone in the OT was just slow and weak and a shadow of themselves. Rather than losing a step but perhaps gaining in wisdom and power, everyone was just gimpy because of their infirmities. But I'd always saw OT Palpatine and Vaders' power in the fact that they didn't have to dance, flip, and spin like the Monty Python bunny.

It's no secret that Palpatine wanted to recruit Luke for his abilities, and to sacrifice Vader if necessary in the case that Luke did turn out to be more powerful than his father-- but it was never remotely hinted in the OT that he was looking to get rid of Vader because he had already concluded that he wasn't up to snuff. Had Vader not intervened, it looked like Luke would have been easily killed by the Emporer... which makes him not so powerful to begin with, and which, if Lucas is to be believed, also makes Luke pretty unqualified as being someone "more powerful than he was to help him rule the universe."

But like Hurin said, it had always seemed that if anything, Palpatine would have chosen Luke for his age and eventual potential, not because he was already dissatisfied with his own creation.

-Al

[bsu legato]

Man, you guys just don't give up unless somebody can quote you chapter and verse that proves otherwise, do you? Lucas has referrred to Vader as being somewhat of a cripple since at least the mid nineties. Its either in the introductions to the THX remasters or the Annotated Scripts (or both) but I don't recall which and I'm too busy to look it up. It is certainly in the Making of Phanton Menace, where he refers to the saber battles in teh OT as being fought by an old man, a child and a half-droid. And besides that, in your Vader-worship you're missing not only the point of that scene but possibly the entire Prequel Trilogy. Mechanical Vader cannot be seen as any sort of reward. Its a prison that he has to remain in for the rest of his life. It would ruin that if he somehow retained all of his physicality, instead of being far less of the man he once was.

Emperor

It seems that in your anger...YOU killed her.

Vader

I...I couldn't have. She was alive! Noooooooo!

Emperor

But on the plus side, I had them build you this

nifty mechanical body.

Vader

(flexes arm)

Impressive.

Emperor (ctd)

And they whipped up this nifty looking suit

that I'm afraid you'll have to remain in.

Vader inspects his image in a mirror.

Vader

Padme who?

They laugh maniacaly.

[JKeats]

Man, you guys just don't give up unless somebody can quote you chapter and verse that proves otherwise, do you? Lucas has referrred to Vader as being somewhat of a cripple since at least the mid nineties. Its either in the introductions to the THX remasters or the Annotated Scripts (or both) but I don't recall which and I'm too busy to look it up. It is certainly in the Making of Phanton Menace, where he refers to the saber battles in teh OT as being fought by an old man, a child and a half-droid. And besides that, in your Vader-worship you're missing not only the point of that scene but possibly the entire Prequel Trilogy. Mechanical Vader cannot be seen as any sort of reward. Its a prison that he has to remain in for the rest of his life. It would ruin that if he somehow retained all of his physicality, instead of being far less of the man he once was.

Emperor

It seems that in your anger...YOU killed her.

Vader

I...I couldn't have. She was alive! Noooooooo!

Emperor

But on the plus side, I had them build you this

nifty mechanical body.

Vader

(flexes arm)

Impressive.

Emperor (ctd)

And they whipped up this nifty looking suit

that I'm afraid you'll have to remain in.

Vader inspects his image in a mirror.

Vader

Padme who?

They laugh maniacaly.

How does this prove that Vader wasn't a badass when only the OT was available? Before the prequels were even produced (which is what we are going off on) how did we know Lucas wanted to show Vader as a crippled version of Anakin Skywalker's PRIOR abilities?

Did we know Vader was much faster and stronger before he got in the suit? No. Why? Because if you just go off the OT (again, what we were doing) you see Vader doing all kinds of amazing crap (piloting his TIE, kicking ass in lightsaber duels, using the Force). But after the prequels, even after just Episode I, you start to realize, hey, these Jedi/Sith dudes were way more dangerous back in the day.

If all we had were the OT films, we would never think "Oh god, look at that Vader guy, being all crippled and lame" but because we do have the prequels to compare to, we can actually see the difference.