Revenge of the Sith

[Duke Togo]

Your argument is that it is Luke that provides balance to the Force because he is a Jedi/Sith hybrid.

Um, no its not. Where the hell did you get that from?

[Duke Togo]

I've spent some time now poking around other message boards, reading discussions on this topic, and I have come to the conclusion that Lucas farted all of this up. There is no one answer here, no right or wrong answer. The truth is, its unknown. The only answers you will really get are from the EU, which isn't canon. Too many contridictions.

Roll your eyes all you want, but its true. Should we start involving the so called "Dark Jedi" in this discussion?

You can sit and read through not just what little we have said here, but the pages upon pages of discussions and articles elsewhere, and come to the conclusion that there is no conclusion. Otherwise, this wouldn't be an ongoing debate.

[Hurin]

Your argument is that it is Luke that provides balance to the Force because he is a Jedi/Sith hybrid.

Um, no its not. Where the hell did you get that from?

This is you, is it not?

Actually, it means eliminating the old Jedi Order as well. The Jedi were also throwing the Force out of balance. Qui Gon's path and teachings about "the living Force" is what the true nature of the Force is. This gray area, neither good or evil, is where the true balance lies. Once the Emperor and Vader are dead, there are no Sith or Jedi left, leaving the Force in a state of balance. Luke is a disciple of Qui Gon's teachings, and thus brings about a new Order to the Force.

[Duke Togo]

Yes, that's me, and nowhere in that post did I state that Luke is the one who brings balance to the Force.

[Hurin]

I've spent some time now poking around other message boards, reading discussions on this topic, and I have come to the conclusion that Lucas farted all of this up. There is no one answer here, no right or wrong answer. The truth is, its unknown. The only answers you will really get are from the EU, which isn't canon. Too many contridictions.

Roll your eyes all you want, but its true. Should we start involving the so called "Dark Jedi" in this discussion?

You can sit and read through not just what little we have said here, but the pages upon pages of discussions and articles elsewhere, and come to the conclusion that there is no conclusion. Otherwise, this wouldn't be an ongoing debate.

LOL. The reason this is an ongoing debate is because of one concept: Fanboys.

Fanboys who get so into something that they actually believe they can do it better than its creator and won't accept when the creator disagrees with their own pet theories. I believe you've had something to say about how much you hate fanboys in the past. Well, look in the mirror buddy. You're now officially one of us.

You claim that we can't know the truth. We can. . . because Lucas has told us. And you are just unwilling to accept it because you think you've discovered all these subtle meanings and details that simply aren't there or are there, but mean something entirely different.

You've never really seemed to grasp that the burden of proof is on you in this situation because you are contradicting what Lucas has said and what actually already works as part of the series. You think you have come up with something better. Yet you have simply made up some of it (Luke's dual nature) and are merely asserting your opinion as fact for the rest.

Tell me, as briefly as possible, what is it, specifically, about Lucas's stated view regarding the prophecy that doesn't work for you? Why does it need "improvement" by you and the other fanboys who won't accept his view?

This all reminds me of another post where I was reading about this issue (you're not the only one):

TWD: One day, little Johnny came home from school and asked his mother to make him a cheese sandwhich. Johnny liked cheese sandwhiches very much, and eating one would please the young child.

FANBOY: Johnny hates cheese!

TWD: Come again?

FB: Johnny hates cheese!

TWD: Well, with all due respect, it's my story, and I should know whether or not this character I made up likes cheese or not.

FB: But I like cheese, and I don't like Johnny! So JOhnny doesn't like cheese!

TWD: Didn't you hear the part where I said that eating a cheese sandwhich would please the child?

FB: Irrelevant! He hates cheese dammit! His mom likes cheese!

TWD: His mom was the one who made him the sandwhich. She, herself, isn't the cheese affectionado.

FB: Fool! His mom loves cheese! Not Johnny Lame-o!

TWD: I give up! What's the use of me telling a story if you're just going to make up your own?

The irony that you (Mr. Anti-Fanboy) are the one engaging in all of this is just priceless!

[Hurin]

Yes, that's me, and nowhere in that post did I state that Luke is the one who brings balance to the Force.

Well, you deceptively and selectively quoted me. Here is what I said:

Your argument is that it is Luke that provides balance to the Force because he is a Jedi/Sith hybrid. And that both the Jedi and the Sith had to die before he could be the embodiment of that balance.

This accurately represents your view. You believe that Luke provides balance by his very nature as a Sith/Jedi hybrid after the death of the Emperor, Yoda, and Vader. Don't try to weasel out of it now. You see the establishing of balance as a multi-step process: First, the Jedi must die. Then when the Emperor dies along with Vader and Yoda, Luke and his new Jedi order represent balance.

[Duke Togo]

LOL. The reason this is an ongoing debate is because of one concept: Fanboys.

Fanboys who get so into something that they actually believe they can do it better than its creator and won't accept when the creator disagrees with their own pet theories. I believe you've had something to say about how much you hate fanboys in the past. Well, look in the mirror buddy. You're now officially one of us.

And you completely miss the fact that nowhere in the Saga is the truth behind this clear. Lucas himself has changed his story several times on the subject. The only answers generally come from the EU (which generally support my argument, which is amusing, because I don't really like the EU).

[Duke Togo]

First, the Jedi must die. Then when the Emperor dies along with Vader and Yoda, Luke and his new Jedi order represent balance.

Yes, now you understand it. Anakin wipes out the Jedi, then the Sith. Balance is achieved. Luke is literally the heir to this.

[Hurin]

And you completely miss the fact that nowhere in the Saga is the truth behind this clear. Lucas himself has changed his story several times on the subject. The only answers generally come from the EU (which generally support my argument, which is amusing, because I don't really like the EU).

Dude. . . you're so f'ing hopeless that I can't stop laughing! How many times have you stated something in this thread only to have it rebutted or blow up in your face. . . and then you just move on to deny something else. . . only to have that backfire. Then you start quoting things and citing them as support, but you can't explain or even describe how they support you. And, in fact, they quite explicitly disavow your view. And every time any of this is pointed out to you, you just obfuscate and avoid. . . and move on to your next diversion. . . until you've got nowhere left to go but to say: "Yeah, I guess I'm pretty much pulling this out of my ass." But since you don't have the class to do that, you pull out: "I guess we'll never know."

Lucas knows. And he's told us, repeatedly. You just refuse to believe it and point to things you've misinterpreted as evidence that he has "changed his mind."

You can look to the EU if you want. But you don't need to. He's already explained it and that explanation is satisfactory if you don't already have a pet theory in mind.

I'm done. For your sake, I hope you are too!

[Duke Togo]

Dude. . . you're so f'ing hopeless that I can't stop laughing! How many times have you stated something in this thread only to have it rebutted or blow up in your face. . .

I missed it, what exactly blew up in my face? And just because you state something doesn't mean anything I've said is instantly wrong. I said it before and I'll say it again, if the answer was that clear, this wouldn't be an ongoing discussion in the Star Wars fan community.

I stand by my argument.

[Duke Togo]

I found a thread just for you, Hurin:

http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_S...6/12176359/?154

Go have fun.

[Goth Kitty 22]

[Hurin]

I missed it, what exactly blew up in my face? And just because you state something doesn't mean anything I've said is instantly wrong.

Wow. . . it would be easier for you to just go back through the whole thread. But I have time today. So here you go: Hmmm, (1) you claimed that I "deny the existence of the prequels" (obiously false). (2) You then again said that I now may acknowledge Ep1, but I must not then acknowledge Ep2 and 3 (again, nonsense). But your point is that the pophecy's meaning changed after Episode I. (3) I then point out that it would be hard for Lucas to change his view on it because of some revelation between Ep1 and Ep3 because he's known the story (in general) for decades and in detail for years. (4) And I also pointed out that most of the foundation for your beliefs about the prophecy is based in Episode I (where Qui-Gon is most prevalent), and Lucas's most clear and decisive comment where he both says that only one side must die, and that the Sith are that side comes when he completes EpI in the Making of Episode I book. (5) I also point out to you that it is hard for the Prophecy to be about Anakin killing the Jedi as the Chosen One since he didn't kill all the Jedi, the Clone Troopers did it at the command of the Emperor. You ignored all these points. (6,7,8,9,10,11,12) I then posted a little chart with point after point. You ignored all these too and have not addressed a single one except (much later) to say that you find it easy to discount Lucas as recently as five years ago (which again, ignores my point that what he said five years ago was directly related to the foundation of your argument in Ep1). Hmmm, moving on, you then avoid things by making fun of me for not ignoring you. . . and then you inexplicably ask, as though it hadn't been answered five times already, how the Force can be in balance if the Jedi don't die. I answer this again (for the fifth time). . . and, Lo and behold, for the only time, you actually manage to muster an attempt at a response. . . which I quickly point out is full of contradictions (example: (13) You say there is a Dark Side and Light Side and that there is a will to the Dark Side that controls the Sith, and then you say there is no good or evil in the Force). (14) I also point out that your definition of a Sith is a bit off according to Sidious's own words and what we've always known. At this point, you post some quotes from Space.com, claiming that it supports your view. (15) But, when asked how it does so, you can't explain why and merely state that you stand by your argument. (16) But then, when you are pressed and post the full article, it turns out that the article actually refutes your view. (17) You then, wanting to avoid that reality, misquote me and try to make it sound like I haven't understood your point, then concede that I do. . . (and I always have). The rest is collectively made up of you simply stating: "I don't think that proves anything."

Well, a ten minute, quick review shows at least 17 unanswered points. I'm sure there are more. So, if you want to go back through the thread now and address those points, I'd be thrilled. But I don't think you can. Because you didn't.

But really, all that is fluff. This is the bottom line: Lucas's explanation works. It presents no problems and does not require a solution. It fully explains the arc of all six movies. You want more. You obviously want Qui-Gon to be more central to the arc and the Prophecy. So you're willing to twist things to see it that way and dismiss what Lucas has said. You can have it that way in your own mind. But it's not what Lucas believes because he has told us what he believes. And you have no evidence to the contrary from the movies or any interviews. Anything beyond that is fanboy speculation.

Edited May 26, 2005 by Hurin

[Agent ONE]

...

But really, all that is fluff.  This is the bottom line:  Lucas's explanation works.  It presents no problems and does not require a solution.  It fully explains the arc of all six movies.  You want more.  You obviously want Qui-Gon to be more central to the arc and the Prophecy.  So you're willing to twist things to see it that way and dismiss what Lucas has said.  You can have it that way in your own mind.  But it's not what Lucas believes because he has told us what he believes.  And you have no evidence to the contrary from the movies or any interviews.  Anything beyond that is fanboy speculation.

I am proud of you, my son.

Guys,

At least give him credit for defending Sith... Only a few weeks ago he was willing to set himself on fire to prove that the prequels were teh suck.

Edited May 26, 2005 by Agent ONE

[Majestic]

Guys,

At least give him credit for defending Sith... Only a few weeks ago he was willing to set himself on fire to prove that the prequels were teh suck.

Yet some maintain that the prequels are "teh suck". Even if the third one is indeed good, it won't in my mind make up for the dreck of the first two. (haven't seen it yet, I'm hopeful it won't "teh suck" as much as the other two "teh suck to the nth degree").

Edited May 26, 2005 by Majestic

[Agent ONE]

Guys,

At least give him credit for defending Sith... Only a few weeks ago he was willing to set himself on fire to prove that the prequels were teh suck.

Yet some maintain that the prequels are "teh suck". Even if the third one is indeed good, it won't in my mind make up for the dreck of the first two. (haven't seen it yet, I'm hopeful it won't "teh suck" as much as the other two "teh suck to the nth degree").

YOU suck to the nth degree.

I mean that from the bottom of my heart, you really are a chump.

[shiyao]

To be honest, I actually preferred TPM and AOTC to ROTS. Too much cutting here and there, bland inane lightsaber duels, one (poorly planned) space battle sequence (note use of singular), and a general "rushed" feel all led to a diminished experience, at least for me. Don't get me wrong - it was satisfying enough. But I can't help feeling that we all lowered our expectations for the last one.

And it's really weird that everyone is slamming Hurin. I like reading Hurin's posts; they are largely articulate and well substantiated. Despite this, he gets, really, a ridiculous amount of flak. Why? Is it because he's not on the MW "inside club"? Because he doesn't know certain people who know certain people? It's really quite unfortunate that cliques and bullies have transcended the schoolyard to come into residence in the online world.

I've violated my own rule (that dick waggling over the internet is pointless and ultimately a reflection of deficiencies inherent in the offline individual) by posting this, so I'll stop now. For the record, Hurin is guilty of this as well - but I appreciate his attempts to keep things civil. Some others on MW aren't so conscientious.

[wwwmwww]

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread yet but in regards to episodes 7, 8, and 9.  Have others here seen these?

Star Wars Episode 7 Plot Summary

Star Wars Episode 8 Plot Summary

Star Wars Episode 9 Plot Summary

I see George Lucas is credited for them but if I recall correctly these have been around for a while and I have no idea if they are official or not.

Anyone know more?

Carl

I have no idea about those, however, I'm pretty sure most things that come from Supershadow are Fake.

Chris

Thanks, but check out the links now. I think Supershadow had been up for years and a day or two after I posted those links here the site is taken over. Did my post here put that site on someone's radar screen?

Heck, even if I agree with their reason for taking over the site, they sure DON'T go out of their way to make themselves look good about it.

Odd coincidence?

Carl

Edited May 26, 2005 by wwwmwww

[lt.actionjackson]

Actually, I think 'ol stupidshadow has been on a lot of people's radars for awhile now. I guess some fanboys just got sick of his stupid lies about GL and Star Wars in general.

[Stamen0083]

This is why Revenge of the Sith rules the prequel trilogy:

1. General Grievous has four lightsabers. The most any Jedi ever wields is two (that I know of). He wields four of them. farting FOUR!

2. Anakin versus Obi-Wan duel. It was all blades. It was lightning fast, and that bitchass Anakin got the rest of his limbs cut off at the end.

3. James Earl Jones makes a cameo.

Any of the other prequel movies have those? Huh? Huh?!

[Duke Togo]

Having read all of that (for what reason I don't know), outside of maybe one or two instances where I could have worded things better, I have no clue where you are getting all of that from.

That said, there isn't a chance in hell I am going to respond to all of that, point by point. I'm not that farting dumb.

[Duke Togo]

3. James Earl Jones makes a cameo.

Are we talking outside of his voice here? I don't recall actually seeing him in the movie.

[Sundown]

And it's really weird that everyone is slamming Hurin. I like reading Hurin's posts; they are largely articulate and well substantiated. Despite this, he gets, really, a ridiculous amount of flak. Why? Is it because he's not on the MW "inside club"? Because he doesn't know certain people who know certain people? It's really quite unfortunate that cliques and bullies have transcended the schoolyard to come into residence in the online world.

Noticed this, too. I suppose it's simply because he's long winded and passionate about his views-- ones that not everyone sides with. And in certain places online, if anyone is passionate enough to defend such views at length, then they are automatically a fanatic, too into something for their own good, or simply annoying. Hey, might all be true, but this line of thinking implies that if you're terse, ambivalent, or largely unconcerned with careful and reasoned arguments-- then you're somehow more worthy of being paid attention to. I dunno, seems a little backwards to me.

Good ideas and good arguments don't get much credit nowadays. Seems like it's more about rhetoric and pee pee wagging, really.

I find myself argeeing with a large volume of Hurin's posts. I guess it's cause I share similar sentiments to start with. Still, I've noticed that his force of argument rarely relies on ad hominim attacks and tends to stick to the actual discussion. His line of thinking just make bloody good sense most of the time, even if one doesn't agree. I suppose his opponents probably don't care to be beaten over the head with the weight of his arguments over and over again, though.

Yeah, I've noticed that ever since a few key personalities decided to direct their wrath on Hurin in the past, few around are willing to publicly concede or agree with him, even when what he says is well reasoned and sound.

-Al

Edited May 26, 2005 by Sundown

[Stamen0083]

Are we talking outside of his voice here? I don't recall actually seeing him in the movie.

Nah. I meant the voice.

[lord_breetai]

Just cause Lucas inteperts his work one way dosn't mean that everyone else has too... I don't care what he said in a making of book or an interview... just what is said in the movies themselves... thats what Lucas gives us that the majority of fans are going to pay attention too... only the Uber Fanboy Nerds are going to scour every interview every documentry so they can argue their point of view (Yes Hurin YOU are the biggest Fanboy in this thread).

And that's another point there... in Jedi Obi-wan brings up the point that the truth is open to multiple points of view... Lucas says in the movie that one event can have many intepretations, so what is wrong with applying that here?

I've seen many creators acknowledge that their interpretation is not the only valid one for an event... thats why god gave us brains so taht we could think for ourselves.

Lucas is not wrong... Duke is not wrong... and you Hurin are not wrong...

From a Certain point of veiw.

Me I like my theory and it don't argue too much with Lucas either.

[Duke Togo]

Lucas is not wrong... Duke is not wrong... and you Hurin are not wrong...

From a Certain point of veiw.

Me I like my theory and it don't argue too much with Lucas either.

My only problem here is that after actually taking the time to look into other discussions and debates on this topic elsewhere, its quite clear that neither the movies nor Lucas have been quite clear (no matter what Hurin thinks).

[Sundown]

Just cause Lucas inteperts his work one way dosn't mean that everyone else has too... I don't care what he said in a making of book or an interview...  just what is said in the movies themselves... thats what Lucas gives us that the majority of fans are going to pay attention too...

Shades of postmodernism... everything is true if you want it to be. Intended meanings have no value. Sure sounds nice and lets our egos make reality for ourselves. Who wouldn't want that?

Problem is, even though one can and probably should interpret what they see to find subtleties that they resonate deeper with... what they interpret cannot violate or contradict what the creator intends. If it does, then they have to fully acknowledge that their own take is not the creator's vision. They must then acknowledge that their take does not weigh as heavily as the creator's own intentions... unless one is ready to rob the creator of his means to express himself and to twist it and malign it for personal and private pleasure. Or unless the creator's whole purpose was to open things up for private interpretation alone.

But I'm of the thought that art should in most cases have basic intended meaning. If art causes someone to see things entirely differently from what the creator was trying to express, the creator has then failed in expressing himself to that person. And to make meaning for ourselves that contradicts what the creator intends is to rob the creator of his own avenue of expression-- especially when we know full well what was in his mind in the act of creation.

If the artist had only generic meaning in mind and left things open for us to apply as we felt like it, then we have the freedom to liberally interpret. But Lucas did not leave things open.

If you say "I love pie", and I interpret you as expressing an unnatural sexual fixation for baked goods, then the mistake is mine.

If you paint a painting of a freshly baked pie on a windowsill, hoping to express just how delicious pie is-- and I interpret that work of art as symbolizing how great a physical lust you have for pastry, then I rob you of your ability to accurately express yourself. You would be more than right in disowning my interpretation, and in asserting that this painting of a pie has nothing to do with sex. The painting says nothing of your unnatural desires. My "interpretation" might actually say something about mine that it didn't intend. Irony.

Who cares what Lucas intends? Well, Lucas does. And if we're to treat his work and by extention himself with any respect, we should too.

And that's another point there... in Jedi Obi-wan brings up the point that the truth is open to multiple points of view... Lucas says in the movie that one event can have many intepretations, so what is wrong with applying that here? 

It doesn't apply because Lucas isn't actually saying that about his own work. We would apply it only to justify what we want the meaning to be, and using his own work to undermine his own intentions just seems to be a little bit irresponsible and a little disengenuous.

I've seen many creators acknowledge that their interpretation is not the only valid one for an event...

But when a creator does state that their interpretation is the main intended meaning, then we ought to listen.

thats why god gave us brains so taht we could think for ourselves.

Well, I'd argue that God gave us brains so that we could discern real and actual meanings, not to make our own up as we go along. Real meanings not unlike those intended by the creator we talk about above. But that's a whole nother discussion.

-Al

Edited May 26, 2005 by Sundown

[lord_breetai]

Oh yeah about the death of the Empror being important in the battle of Endor according to the EU the Emperor was the only one ever to be better at Battle Meditation then Nomi Sunrider (Yeah Bastila wasn't the first one with it...) his BM spread across the entire galaxy... and once he died that was gone.

[mikeszekely]

Just cause Lucas inteperts his work one way dosn't mean that everyone else has too... I don't care what he said in a making of book or an interview... just what is said in the movies themselves... thats what Lucas gives us that the majority of fans are going to pay attention too... only the Uber Fanboy Nerds are going to scour every interview every documentry so they can argue their point of view (Yes Hurin YOU are the biggest Fanboy in this thread).

And that's another point there... in Jedi Obi-wan brings up the point that the truth is open to multiple points of view... Lucas says in the movie that one event can have many intepretations, so what is wrong with applying that here?

I've seen many creators acknowledge that their interpretation is not the only valid one for an event... thats why god gave us brains so taht we could think for ourselves.

Lucas is not wrong... Duke is not wrong... and you Hurin are not wrong...

From a Certain point of veiw.

Me I like my theory and it don't argue too much with Lucas either.

With art... and I mean all art, not just Star Wars or movies in general, there is always two sides. There is the artist's intentions... art is, after all, a method of expression. But there is also what the people experiencing the art take away from it. Abstract art is a great example of this... three people could look at the same sculpture, and come up with three different interpretations of it... and not of them could be what the artist was actually thinking of when he or she created it.

It is usually a good thing to think critically about art and find the meaning that speaks to you personally. It encourages discussion, creativity, and free thinking.

However, the artist is the creator. He or she may hear other interpretations, and even agree that they are good ideas that he or she never thought of. But artistic expression is ultimately a form of communication, and the artist's intented meaning is ultimately the correct one. You might see Pablo Picasso's Guernica as a tribute the the glory of conquest and the defeat of your enemies, but you can't deny that Picasso meant the painting to illustrate the horror of that attack and the senseless slaughter of unarmed peasants.

The bottom line is, we could argue about the finer details for years to come, but if Lucas says that Anakin was the Chosen One, and that it was the act of killing Palpatine and destroying the Sith that brings balance to the Force, than it is so... even if if he does change his mind from time to time, which we have seen on some things (Han shoots first, Greedo shoots first, Han and Greedo shoot simultaneously...). It may be important to note that, while we can't be sure without more updated quote from Lucas, we have no indication that he has changed his mind about the prophecy. Nothing in Episode II or III contradicts what Lucas said during Episode I about Anakin killing Palpatine to restore the Force to balance.

If it does make those in the Duke's camp feel better, though, remember that the EU books are endorsed, but not canon. It is just as likely that Leia never became a Jedi (I don't think that was anything more than foreshadowing for the potential third trilogy, which Lucas may have abandoned fully), and Luke may never have created a new Jedi Order. Perhaps the last of the Jedi died when Luke died, leaving the galaxy with no real Force adepts, light or dark.

[Sundown]

It is usually a good thing to think critically about art and find the meaning that speaks to you personally. It encourages discussion, creativity, and free thinking.

However, the artist is the creator. He or she may hear other interpretations, and even agree that they are good ideas that he or she never thought of. But artistic expression is ultimately a form of communication, and the artist's intented meaning is ultimately the correct one. You might see Pablo Picasso's Guernica as a tribute the the glory of conquest and the defeat of your enemies, but you can't deny that Picasso meant the painting to illustrate the horror of that attack and the senseless slaughter of unarmed peasants.

I just wasted half an hour and too much typing. Because this here says it all and much better.

-Al

[lord_breetai]

I actually agree with most of what you said Sundown... but I'm not pre-paired to sit through dozens of interviews and documentrys and making of books to find out Lucas' meaning... and I'm not going to go just based on a few selective quotes from Hurin... but as a whole I accomadated everything I know about Lucas' postion from into my theory. But I'd say that Lucas has been pretty clear he allows other points of veiw on his work... he allows Del Rey to publish novels and Dark Horse to publish comics that all flow from different points of view, there are many points where he could have easly corrected them and gone "ah you're wrong this is is how it's supposed to be" but although he approves all of the basic concepts he dosn't look over them.

He said once something to the effect he's not terribly interested in them that the movies are his Star Wars and that there are other versions and interpretations out there.... something like that.

Anyway... I'd never argue wiht a creator if he told me something... but I'm interested in the movies and what I can get of out them it spoils the fun if I read all this behind the scenes junk... and just looking at the movies I can see many valid interpretations cause it is not overly clear there.

When Lucas had Darth Vader say "Luke I am your Father" he wanted it to be ambiguos he wanted people to debate if it's true or not.

Did he know? Of course. Was there a right answer? For sure. Was the truth open to two points of veiw? Yes the movies say so.

My point isn't that Lucas is wrong or that we shouldn't take his answer as the truth.... but that there are Points of View in looking at one truth. mutlipe angles it can be seen at and expanded from.

[Mr March]

With art... and I mean all art, not just Star Wars or movies in general, there is always two sides. There is the artist's intentions... art is, after all, a method of expression. But there is also what the people experiencing the art take away from it. Abstract art is a great example of this... three people could look at the same sculpture, and come up with three different interpretations of it... and not of them could be what the artist was actually thinking of when he or she created it.

It is usually a good thing to think critically about art and find the meaning that speaks to you personally. It encourages discussion, creativity, and free thinking.

However, the artist is the creator. He or she may hear other interpretations, and even agree that they are good ideas that he or she never thought of. But artistic expression is ultimately a form of communication, and the artist's intented meaning is ultimately the correct one. You might see Pablo Picasso's Guernica as a tribute the the glory of conquest and the defeat of your enemies, but you can't deny that Picasso meant the painting to illustrate the horror of that attack and the senseless slaughter of unarmed peasants.

Whoa! What's this doing on MW? Not trying to be sarcastic, but this is probably the most interesting post I've ever seen anyone make here. This is very astute of you mikeszekely and almost a dead on correct analogy. Nice read!

[lord_breetai]

I think you two took the first line of my post too seriously... There are other Intepretations and Lucas' Interpretation. Lucas interpretation is THE truth but there is also room to go off and say "what if". But even looking at Lucas there are other points of view. I said my theory didn't contradict with Lucas... got back and look at it and tell me if you think it does.

Edit: I mean what do you think Robotech is if not someone coming along and re-interpreting someone elses work and ascribing meanings not intended by the author to things like protoculture?

Is Shoji Kawamori right? Yes, he created the bloody series.

Is Macek wrong? Can you say that he is without starting a flame war?

No seriously Anime is the perfect Genre to illustrate that their can be more then one intepratation of a story... as many anime are radically different interpretations of the Manga.

The manga is usually better though.

Edited May 26, 2005 by lord_breetai

[Uxi]

It seems obvious to me that Hurin is being baited or there'd be responses to other people.

There can certainly be other points of view. You can add 1+1 a hundred times... but if get a hundred different answers, it's likely at least 99 of them are wrong.

Now a deceitful bloke like Palpatine might try to confuse a guy under alot of pressure and say "it's 10 in binary..." but unless he's talking to a droid, it's a filthy lie meant only to confuse and distract since people almost exclusively think in decimal.

Good Point about the intent of artistic creation, too. People can certainly interpret things differently than the artist. But their interpretation is still wrong, as far as objectivity is concerned.

[mikeszekely]

I mean what do you think Robotech is if not someone coming along and re-interpreting someone elses work and ascribing meanings not intended by the author to things like protoculture?

Is Shoji Kawamori right? Yes, he created the bloody series.

Is Macek wrong? Can you say that he is without starting a flame war?

I see what you're saying, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with it. But the important thing to remember is that Robotech isn't Macross canon. And while the EU books have been a great outlet for fans seeking to and their own creative interpretations to table, they aren't canon either... they're little more than endorsed fanfiction (and I mean this with no disrespect to some of the talented authors who wrote EU books, especially Zahn). Lucas could release a 7th movie that smacks the entire EU down, if he wanted. He doesn't, though, because whether or not we got the meaning he wanted us to get from Star Wars, it's pretty clear that all along he wanted to spark our immaginations.

I just wasted half an hour and too much typing. Because this here says it all and much better.

This is very astute of you mikeszekely and almost a dead on correct analogy. Nice read!

Thanks for the compliments, you guys, but don't let it go to my head!