Revenge of the Sith

[lt.actionjackson]

Btw, i thought it was so weak how Yoda just gave up after he fall onto the senate floor when he slipped. He had sidious on the run. He should judt have gotten his lazy a$$ of the floor and hopped back up. He loves hopping anyway. No, he just walks away like a little biotch

I don't think falling from a few hundred feet up and managing to survive at all is a small feat by any means. While it can be debated that Yoda could have beaten Palps, Yoda was already weakened by the inital force lightning attack. Yes, he arrogantly assumed Palps would be an easy mark, leaving him open to the initial attack. After that, Sid had the high ground, making it difficult to "hop his lazy ass" up to Palps' level. It was a very close match given that Yoda had just finished off probably a few dozen clone troopers at the temple while Palps was chillin' in his throne room gathering his strength. I don't think Yoda's connection to the force and having felt the loss of so many jedi in a matter of hours? days? helped his constitution. If the battle had taken place with Yoda at full strength, Palps corpse would have been all over the Senate chamber.

[Hurin]

I was doing some reading over at the Original Trilogy Forums and they've tackled some of this stuff too. But some guy posted a great summation on what George Lucas himself has had to say about a lot of the questions raised here:

Regarding the "Balance Prophecy":

While I imagine this was one of those subjects meant to spark debate and discussion, George Lucas has stated in interviews that Anakin Skywalker is indeed the Chosen One. As far as the prophecy goes, Anakin brings balance to the Force since it is he who disposes of the imbalance. That is, he kills Emperor Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. Sure, Luke is the catalyst for this turn of events, but it is ultimately Anakin who makes the choice. - Insider Magazine

Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him allowing him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe. - George Lucas - from the American ANH VHS tape in the making of Episode II in the 2000 release.

Regarding how Anakin was conceived (Sith involvement?):

"Lucas: The midi-chlorians have brought Anakin into being as 'the chosen one' who brings balance to the universe." - The Making of Episode 1, Random House, 1999.

Should Anakin have been trained? Is Ben and/or Qui-Gon to blame for the fall of the Jedi?:

"GL: I think it is obvious that he was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor." - CUT magazine interview

[bigkid24]

Keeping Shmi and kid on an outlying planet kept Anakin off the Jedi radar. Qui-gon said as much in Ep. I when he said "If he were born in the Republic, he would have been identified early." Also, Darth Plaugus probably didn't plan on gettin' capped in his sleep by Sidious, who might not have known of this little experiment. Who knows what his plans could have been. Again this is all conjecture. Just a 'what-if' idea that could be way off the mark.

I agree with all of that except I think Sidious created Anakin and not Plaugus. I think Sidious learned everything from his Master, created Anakin, and then killed Plaugus in his sleep. In the mean time Sidious found Maul to use until Anakin was old enough

[Godzilla]

Well, I saw it yesterday. After my friend told on Friday how the theaters were not crowded, I decided to watch it yesterday. Here are my thoughts:

The Good:

1. I have to say the film was better than Episodes 1 and 2.

2. The battle scenes over Coruscant was incredible.

3. I enjoyed the humor (i.e. SBD kicking R2 after being zapped, Obiwan's comments, droid sounds of dying, etc..) when Obi-wan and Anakin was rescuing the Chancellor.

4. Light Saber Duels galor.

5. The Chancellor vs Mace duel and the betrayal to the Jedi Order by Anakin. The way the Chancellor pretended to be weak so Anakin would step in was just great. Ian McDiarmid acting as the Chancelor/Darth Sidious was just great.

6. Obi-wan has come a long way from being a punk padiwan in Episode 1 TPM to a great Jedi knight. Obi-wan became my favorite. Ewan McGregor acting was superb.

The Bad:

1. Recycled dialog. I am so sick of recycled dialog throughout the Star Wars movies. All three movies suffered from it. "I have a bad feeling about this" has been over used. I mean Lucas basically used the dialog from the classic Star Wars. Just like in Ep 2, "Concentrate all fire on the battleship core." Gee, since when does Yoda become Admiral Ackbar? Better yet, Padme's last quote before she dies: "There is still good in him". Put in some fresh dialog.

2. The tender moment scenes of Anakin and Padme. I could have deal without. Bore me to death please.

3. Padme's death. She sees her kids names them and then dies. The medical droid says she is healthy but she lost the will to live? Give me a break.

4. Seems like the cutting of certain limbs is what everyone does. Jedis get their hands cutoff (Mace Windu and Darth Tyranus) and beheadings (Yoda beheaded the clones in a foil assassination attempt)

5. Darth Tyranus's death was too quick. I thought he was all powerful. Though interesting, the padiwans are the one who took out the Sith Lord apprentice where Obi-wan took out Darth Maul in TPM and Anakin took out Darth Tyranus.

6. When do cruiser guns use shell/projectile based weapons in space? You see the clone troopers on guns eject shell casing after firing. Um, what happened to turbo lasers?

The Ugly:

1. IMO This film still does not best the the classic Star Wars. By far this movies ranks 4th. ANH and ROTJ are trading places for 1st and 2nd IMO with ESB in 3rd. 5th and 6th place would be Episode 1 and Epsiode 2 thought they trade places. I am debating about less screen time for Jar Jar versus the nice Naboo landscape.

2. Padme was not hot looking as she was in the previous episodes. I am sorry but Natalie Portman was damn hot in Episode 2 especiallt the backless dress.

3. How in the world does Obi-wan in ANH do not remember R2-D2? The story continuity is just messed up. Better yet, how come Beru and Owen do not remember the droids or evan Darth Vader?

Overall I like the movie but I came out feeling so so. Not like when I watched Star Wars as a kid where I had the feeling of wow. I dunno maybe it is because I am older. Still I rewatch Star Wars classic and come out feeling wow still. *shrugs*

[Hurin]

Don't know how I missed your post until now. Look, I'm exhausted by this too. So I'm going to try to be as brief as possible:

I also hope that you will come to understand that what Lucas said in a 2005 interview has no bearing on what he said years ago when my point is that the nine films were once planned/stated/considered/intentioned. The 2005 Lucas interview would only invalidate my arguement if I said "Lucas is still planning nine films despite what he's saying now in 2005 interviews"...which is something I have never written here and I do not subscribe too.

This is where I'm still confused. Obviously, if your point is that he once said that. Then, no, something he says in 2005 can't erase those words from history. But, that's not really the point here. The point is whether what he said back then was true. And, therefore, what he has to say now about the veracity of what he said then is very relevant. He is essentially saying that he helped perpetuate ("played into") the myth of the 9+ movie series, even though it wasn't ever really in his plans. That, therefore, must establish some doubt as to whether what he said on prior occasions was in fact true. Though you may consider what he says today to be unpersuasive, it is hardly irrelevant and cannot be simply dismissed as such. Persuasiveness is subjective. Relevance is objective. And what he said is objectively relevant given that he addresses exactly what we are talking about. No court of law would consider a witness's forthright disavowal of prior testimony as irrelevant.

Further, I am not and never have held out any hope for more films beyond the six. The possibility of nine films has been solidly dead since at least 1999 as far as my research can prove (which can be sourced to numerous publications, including the no infamous Empire interview) . Any one of you here that has attempted to paint me with the brush of fandom myth that I hold hope for the production of three more films will continue to be in error. . .

I truly have no recollection of writing (or even thinking) that you held out any hope for additional movies. If I gave that impression (I've written a lot. . . too much, actually), I apologize.

Best Regards,

Hurin

Edited May 23, 2005 by Hurin

[Kin]

oke... I always wanted to shout this out:

REVENGE OF THE SNIFF!

[JKeats]

Better late than never...

Saw it on Saturday and thought it was great. The few minor problems I had were overshadowed by the greater moments in the film. I thought that even though Lucas failed with the usual points (dialogue, acting, etc.) he did come up with some pretty memorable scenes, which is what got me into SW in the first place.

The few that stick out in my mind:

-Obi-Wan warning Anakin before Anakin tries to jump over him and then the result. Great scene.

-The montages of Order 66 being implemented were well done.

-Grevious' handling of his lightsabers was neat.

-Yoda's entrance into Palpatine's chambers and how he deals with the Royal Guards. Something about that scene reminded me of Indiana Jones pulling out his gun to shoot the big man with the huge sword.

-Vader receiving his new body.

Anyway, I think George did something great with Ep. III, which is that it made me see Vader in a whole new light. Now, when I watch the OT, I'm seeing Darth Vader in a new angle and searching for more meaning behind his dialogue and actions. The fact that I came away with this feeling alone makes me really pleased with Ep. III.

Huzzah.

[HWR MKII]

I see Vader as p!%% off at himself now about all his decisions and still being alive. I get the feeling that he either wants to end it all or redeem himself in some way but cant. That is until episode 6 when he is given the chance for redemption.

The guard scene was influenced by the gunshot scene in Raiders.

[JKeats]

The guard scene was influenced by the gunshot scene in Raiders.

How smart am I? Wait, don't answer that.

[Hurin]

So, according to Lucas, Anakin/Vader restores balance to the force by killing Sidious/Palpatine who represented an imbalance in the force. He was causing the imbalance both due to his powerful nature and because the dark side is excercised without any concern for balance.

And, I take it that we are to believe that Vader had to go through the whole sha-bang up through RotJ in order to fulfill the prophecy and kill him. Because only at that point did he have the power (having grown since Ep3), the proximity to the emperor (having gained a certain level of trust), and the motivation (provided by Luke).

But, here's my problem: Couldn't Anakin have just allowed Windu to kill Palpatine (or even assisted him!) and then balance would have been restored just as easily. . . with a lot less heartache and destruction (including Alderran!)?

Here's the only rationalization I can come up with: Palpatine wasn't actually defeated by Mace Windu. He was faking defeat (and obviously hamming the helplessness up to induce Anakin to do what he did) in order to bring Anakin over to the dark side when he killed Windu. So, even at that time, if both Mace Windu and Anakin had tried to kill Sidious, they would not have been able to do so.

That's as close as I can get to an explanation. Does the novel explain this at all?

H

[Godzilla]

So, according to Lucas, Anakin/Vader restores balance to the force by killing Sidious/Palpatine who represented an imbalance in the force. He was causing the imbalance both due to his powerful nature and because the dark side is excercised without any concern for balance.

And, I take it that we are to believe that Vader had to go through the whole sha-bang up through RotJ in order to fulfill the prophecy and kill him. Because only at that point did he have the power (having grown since Ep3), the proximity to the emperor (having gained a certain level of trust), and the motivation (provided by Luke).

But, here's my problem: Couldn't Anakin have just allowed Windu to kill Palpatine (or even assisted him!) and then balance would have been restored just as easily. . . with a lot less heartache and destruction (including Alderran!)?

Here's the only rationalization I can come up with: Palpatine wasn't actually defeated by Mace Windu. He was faking defeat (and obviously hamming the helplessness up to induce Anakin to do what he did) in order to bring Anakin over to the dark side when he killed Windu. So, even at that time, if both Mace Windu and Anakin had tried to kill Sidious, they would not have been able to do so.

That's as close as I can get to an explanation. Does the novel explain this at all?

H

You see if Anakin does kill Sidious, he will not learn the secrets in saving life. Remember Anakin's fear is to lose his wife. We know the whole bit about fear leads to anger which leads to hatred which leads to suffering and the path to the darkside is complete. Sidious just played Anakin on his fears. Remember what Yoda siad when Anakin was talking to him? Yoda told him he has to let those fears go. If someone close to him dies, he has to let them go.

Sidious just twisted the facts saying the Republic needs to saved. The Jedi are the ones who wanted to take over the Senate which isnt true but if you see one standpoint it did. Anakin had a decision to face. Of course he had justify that once he cut Mace Windu's hand's off. If you remember Obi-wan's quote in ROTJ: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

OMG... I feel like a Star Wars geek.

[JKeats]

Here's the only rationalization I can come up with: Palpatine wasn't actually defeated by Mace Windu. He was faking defeat (and obviously hamming the helplessness up to induce Anakin to do what he did) in order to bring Anakin over to the dark side when he killed Windu. So, even at that time, if both Mace Windu and Anakin had tried to kill Sidious, they would not have been able to do so.

That's as close as I can get to an explanation. Does the novel explain this at all?

H

I think that might be correct. It seemed like Palpatine was faking his weakness (and maybe even throwing out signals through the force in order to draw Anakin to his rescue, a la Vader baiting Luke through the torture of his friends in order to get him to come to Bespin in ESB).

As soon as Windu stopped deflecting his force lightning back towards him, Palpatine's energy seems to double and he just throws Windu out the window. Windu out the window. Hmm. Should that be funny?

[JELEINEN]

So, according to Lucas, Anakin/Vader restores balance to the force by killing Sidious/Palpatine who represented an imbalance in the force. He was causing the imbalance both due to his powerful nature and because the dark side is excercised without any concern for balance.

And, I take it that we are to believe that Vader had to go through the whole sha-bang up through RotJ in order to fulfill the prophecy and kill him. Because only at that point did he have the power (having grown since Ep3), the proximity to the emperor (having gained a certain level of trust), and the motivation (provided by Luke).

But, here's my problem: Couldn't Anakin have just allowed Windu to kill Palpatine (or even assisted him!) and then balance would have been restored just as easily. . . with a lot less heartache and destruction (including Alderran!)?

That's not a problem. It's called plot.

Here's the only rationalization I can come up with:  Palpatine wasn't actually defeated by Mace Windu.  He was faking defeat (and obviously hamming the helplessness up to induce Anakin to do what he did) in order to bring Anakin over to the dark side when he killed Windu.  So, even at that time, if both Mace Windu and Anakin had tried to kill Sidious, they would not have been able to do so.

I thought that he was faking was kinda obvious.

[Hurin]

You see if Anakin does kill Sidious, he will not learn the secrets in saving life. . .

You're explaining to me why Anakin did what he did. . . but not why the prophecy "made" it happen that way. The thing about prophecy and destiny (in most fiction) is that they are unavoidable and that they really are sorta controlling things.

Okay, let me rephrase: If the entire purpose of the prophecy and/or Anakin's destiny is to kill the Sith Lord, it seems awfully counter-productive for Anakin to stop Mace Windu from killing him. If the purpose of the prophecy is to destroy the Sith, it seems odd that its instrument would stop that from happening, only to accomplish it twenty years later.

H

[Hurin]

I thought that he was faking was kinda obvious.

Yes, it was obvious that he was hamming it up for Anakin's sake. But was he actually defeated? Or, to put it another way: Was he faking it that he was defeated? Or was he just faking his horror at possibly being killed by Windu for Anakin's sake in order to obtain his help?

H

Edited May 24, 2005 by Hurin

[yellowlightman]

I kind of figured he brought balance to the force by killing all those Jedi, leaving two Sith and two Jedi remaining.

[Godzilla]

You see if Anakin does kill Sidious, he will not learn the secrets in saving life. . .

You're explaining to me why Anakin did what he did. . . but not why the prophecy "made" it happen that way. The thing about prophecy and destiny (in most fiction) is that they are unavoidable and that they really are sorta controlling things.

Okay, let me rephrase: If the entire purpose of the prophecy and/or Anakin's destiny is to kill the Sith Lord, it seems awfully counter-productive for Anakin to stop Mace Windu from killing him. If the purpose of the prophecy is to destroy the Sith, it seems odd that its instrument would stop that from happening, only to accomplish it twenty years later.

H

Well we are assuming the prophecy was interpreted correctly. Remember Yoda had doubts when he was talking to Mace and Obi-wan.

[Hurin]

Well we are assuming the prophecy was interpreted correctly.  Remember Yoda had doubts when he was talking to Mace and Obi-wan.

Well, I'm pretty sure Lucas is interpreting the prophecy correctly. And I think Uxi's view on how the number of Jedi don't constitute an imbalance (and they therefore didn't need to die) helps to make sense of what Lucas says (that the prophecy is that the Sith will be destroyed).

But, I think I answered my own question though. I thought, when I first saw the movie, that Windu had actually defeated Palpatine and could have indeed killed him. I thought Palpatine was just acting so pitiful in order to get Anakin to help him. But, I now see that Palpatine was faking defeat and drawing Anakin towards a point of no return (attacking Windu). The sudden return of Palpatine's power (which I mistakenly chalked up to being given a breather during Anakin and Windu's argument) which he then uses to kill Windu as soon as Anakin has crossed the line to the Dark Side sorta seals the deal I guess.

It looks as though, even had Anakin tried to assist Windu in killing Palpatine, they would not have been able to do so at that time. . . otherwise, the prophecy's purpose (as set down by Lucas) was pointless.

H

Edited May 24, 2005 by Hurin

[Guppy]

from a few pages ago it was suggested that Sidious created Anakin manipulating the midi-wotsies. But I think the discussion he had with Anakin in the theatre was mostly lies and half-truths to seduce him to the dark side. And I think it was made clear that Sidious did not have the knowledge to use the force to this extent, as later in the film he says to anakin they will search out the way to bring back the dead together.

I think Anakin's creation was supposed to be one of those classic 'mysteries' where the Hero is born from divine influence, etc etc.

[the white drew carey]

I saw it and liked it. It was fun.

That's all I have to say.

[Myriad]

from a few pages ago it was suggested that Sidious created Anakin manipulating the midi-wotsies. But I think the discussion he had with Anakin in the theatre was mostly lies and half-truths to seduce him to the dark side. And I think it was made clear that Sidious did not have the knowledge to use the force to this extent, as later in the film he says to anakin they will search out the way to bring back the dead together.

I think Anakin's creation was supposed to be one of those classic 'mysteries' where the Hero is born from divine influence, etc etc.

cough cough brothel...........

[Guppy]

lol!! You are SO right.. How else did she afford all those c3-po parts for anni to play with??

and Drew WC - thanks for bringing some "balance" to the SW nerdiness! *ducks tomatoes for the bad pun*

[Seven]

edit: I'm sure this is obvious to everyone but I am slow. I just realised how balance had been perfectly brought to the the force, with 2 on each side. On the dark side is Sidious and Vader, and on the light side is Yoda and Obi wan.

Actually, that's not the balance. Balance isn't brought to the Force until Vader throws the Emperor down the shaft, and then dies. When this happens, there are no Sith left, and the old Jedi Order is no more. There is balance because both extremes have been wiped out. Luke is a new begining, but without the trappings of the past. In many ways, he is the heir to the teachings of Qui Gon, a disciple of the "living Force".

But if we are going by numbers to determine the balance of the force, doesn't Luke throw that out of balance at the end of ROTJ since there is one Jedi and no Sith?

What determines the balance? The number of Jedi versus Sith being equal? Wouldn't this be ridiculous since everytime a Jedi or Sith dies, doesn't it just throw balance out of whack again? I can't see how this can be avoided.

Thanks to anyone that can explain.

Also, it makes me laugh to think that Count Dooku laid everything out when he talked to Obiwan in AOTC, and Obiwan never says anything about it in ROTS like "Aw f*ck, he was right!" Does anyone else think that Obiwan seemed rather nonpluss about all his Jedi comrades being dead as carrion. Yoda and Obiwan never even mention Mace after he is gone and this guy was a major ally and friend!

[Guppy]

I guess they were too busy saving their own asses! But I am sure yoda and obi had plenty of time to think about it while sitting around and passing time on dagobah and tatooine.

Here's an interesting article at Rotten Tomatoes about the comparison in reviews between the old & new trilogy. According to this, the new trilogy rated a lot better than the original.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/news/comments/?entryid=197859

[Hurin]

I thought about re-reading the RotJ novelizatoin for the first time in about ten years. But does it really hold up after RotS? I remember a lot of explicit introspection with Vader. Is any of that contradicted by Sith or what we now know about him? Or, is it left painfully vague now that we know how much detail it could have had?

Part of me wishes they'd bring the original author of the novel back to work some of the threads from the prequel into the novel. He did such a good job on it originally. But that would really represent more futzing with stuff in a manner that I usually dislike!

Best part of the novel: As Luke is leaning over Vader with Vader's helmet off, Vader sorta drifts off into a daydream of warm sunshine, flowers, all the things he denied himself. . . and then feels spring rain on his lips. . . but it's salty. He opens his eyes and sees Luke quietly crying over his father, and he is ashamed and momentarily horrified at the thought of what Luke must be seeing. But then, he reaches up, and gently pinches Luke's arm, saying gently: "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."

I wish it had made it into the film.

B

Well, I was in the bookstore today and was considering picking up RotJ to see how well it holds up given everything we know now. I picked up a copy and flipped to the passage above just because (as I said) it's my favorite.

And immediately after it: "[Vader] wished he had met Yoda. He wanted to thank the wise old Jedi for training his son so well."

Needless to say, I put the book down. Even at just a glance at a random page, it's woefully out of step with the prequel-revised Star Wars. But, it did get my mind thinking again over what the Star Wars universe might have been like in Lucas's mind before he began writing the prequels and felt that overwhelming need to tie everything and everyone together in order to satisfy the desire for film audiences to think: "Ooooh! Look, that/he/she is from the original movies!"

With Tolkien, his son has published 10-15 five hundred-page books documenting just about every draft and revision of each and every one of Tolkien's works. I'd love to see something like that done with Star Wars some day. While, I'm on record as not believing that he ever had the prequels developed to a recognizable degree earlier than a few years ago, I still think there must be some really cool stuff buried in his personal archives.

H

[Hurin]

edit: I'm sure this is obvious to everyone but I am slow. I just realised how balance had been perfectly brought to the the force, with 2 on each side. On the dark side is Sidious and Vader, and on the light side is Yoda and Obi wan.

Actually, that's not the balance. Balance isn't brought to the Force until Vader throws the Emperor down the shaft, and then dies. When this happens, there are no Sith left, and the old Jedi Order is no more. There is balance because both extremes have been wiped out. Luke is a new begining, but without the trappings of the past. In many ways, he is the heir to the teachings of Qui Gon, a disciple of the "living Force".

But if we are going by numbers to determine the balance of the force, doesn't Luke throw that out of balance at the end of ROTJ since there is one Jedi and no Sith?

What determines the balance? The number of Jedi versus Sith being equal? Wouldn't this be ridiculous since everytime a Jedi or Sith dies, doesn't it just throw balance out of whack again? I can't see how this can be avoided.

Thanks to anyone that can explain.

You're about two days behind in the thread. Keep reading. You can save yourself some time by just skipping anything written by me. I type too much.

Or, just skip to this post which defines the "balance prophecy" as set down by Lucas. But, also check out this post by Uxi where he explains it all in a bit more detail. Uxi, to my mind, is the resident Star Wars expert. He has a very wide breadth of Star Wars knowledge/trivia, and has obviously reflected on it all quite a bit. And I say this with some trepidation because we've vehemently disagreed in the past, and now I'm loathe to do so again in the future.

[eugimon]

I think one of the problems with star wars is that there's so many different versions of star wars... the books have their own history, the comics have theirs, then there's the video games and somewhere in all there is what Lucas imagined... only.. even lucas has gone back and changed things and accepted bits and pieces from here and there.

personally, I think star wars was a fun ride.. i enjoy the books and games and the movies.. welll.. I love empire strikes back.. but it is not the carefully thought out and robust universe that a lot of fans try to make it out to be. In many ways it is as scattered and self contradictory as star trek or any other piece of serialized fiction.

[Hurin]

personally, I think star wars was a fun ride.. i enjoy the books and games and the movies.. welll.. I love empire strikes back.. but it is not the carefully thought out and robust universe that a lot of fans try to make it out to be. In many ways it is as scattered and self contradictory as star trek or any other piece of serialized fiction.

Amen! I got off the SW bandwagon (the original films excluded) in about 1995 when all those freakin' novels started coming out. I didn't care for Zahn much. But they weren't terrible. At least he tried to maintain some SW spirit.

But, then more and more novels and comics started coming out that were seriously out of step with what most people then considered Star Wars to be (the tale of a Galactic Civil War). We got inundated with stories of how Han and Leia got married, and almost Star Trek-esque plotlines (mysterious alien species invade the galaxy with some new weapon, etc.)

So, for me, my abandonment of full-fledged Star Wars fan status began well before the prequels or even the Special Editions of the OT. Those two things merely solidified it and accelerated my disenchantment. Though, this latest movie has somewhat reversed that process.

[Uxi]

It's all about perspective.

Remember the official stance regarding the EU. It's all true... from a certain point of view. The movies can be considered documentaries. The screenplays, novelizations, etc perspectives (yet all "canon."). The non-movie novels, comics, etc. Range from opinion pieces and editorials to interpretations to exagerations to slimey National Enquirer type stuff. All have elements of truth (all "official").

Most of the "contradictions" out there are regarding irrelevent minutia... the rest easily fits under the umbrella of the Certain Point of View.

My take on Sidious versus Mace. Mace won. Like a true Jedi Master, he neutralized Sidious' attacks. He was younger and stronger than Yoda and wasn't yet emotionally fatigued by the loss of the other Jedi or physically fatigued by his ordeals beyond the fight itself, from which Sidious would have suffered just as much.

The prophecy? It's end was envisioned at RotJ. "It knew" what Anakin's choice would be. It doesn't take away from Anakin's free will if Mace had finished Sidious off (Anakin chooses to NOT intervene or he chooses to hack down Sidious instead). Either way, the prophecy is fulfilled.

Another thing I noticed from RotJ. Luke is tipped over to the dark side by a similar motivation to his father. He had chosen to not fight darkness with darkness... until Vader threatens Leia. Danger to Leia tipped Luke right to the edge when he had courageously decided to NOT go into darkness. Danger to Padme is what tipped Anakin to Sidious over Mace.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Uxi

[DARTHTODD]

Here's an interesting article at Rotten Tomatoes about the comparison in reviews between the old & new trilogy. According to this, the new trilogy rated a lot better than the original.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/news/comments/?entryid=197859

To me, this says it all. I really feel that 10-20 years down the road, people will have very fond memories of the prequels and appreciatte them much more than they do now.

[Uxi]

Or, just skip to this post which defines the "balance prophecy" as set down by Lucas.  But, also check out this post by Uxi where he explains it all in a bit more detail.  Uxi, to my mind, is the resident Star Wars expert.  He has a very wide breadth of Star Wars knowledge/trivia, and has obviously reflected on it all quite a bit.  And I say this with some trepidation because we've vehemently disagreed in the past, and now I'm loathe to do so again in the future.  

I'm shocked and honored Hurin.

I don't think we disagreed so much as we exaggerated our positions a bit to the more extreme opposition. At least I hope you were exagerrating. I know I was at least a little bit.

Now start talking about raped childhoods or something before it starts getting mushy around here.

Regarding the RotJ Novelization, that fits in as minutia IMO. You could easily add "again" to the met Yoda bit and everything fits. Besides that novel has more than a couple typos IIRC. The rest of it is really good, expanding significantly on the movie and invalidating nothing significant (there is a bit about Obi-wan saying Owen was HIS brother, which was from an earlier draft as Lucas admits in the annotated novelization), but again that's irrelevent and easily corrected by ignoring/altering one word.

These things ARE interesting as bits of previous drafts that never made to celluloid. Even if completely true, they don't change ANYTHING regarding the major story arcs. Let's keep our eyes on the big picture and ignore the small stuff to quibble about. We have major fish to fry in discussion yet.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Uxi

[Effect]

Here's an interesting article at Rotten Tomatoes about the comparison in reviews between the old & new trilogy. According to this, the new trilogy rated a lot better than the original.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/news/comments/?entryid=197859

To me, this says it all. I really feel that 10-20 years down the road, people will have very fond memories of the prequels and appreciatte them much more than they do now.

I agree that was an interesting article. I'm glad they did it as well.

[Keith]

from a few pages ago it was suggested that Sidious created Anakin manipulating the midi-wotsies. But I think the discussion he had with Anakin in the theatre was mostly lies and half-truths to seduce him to the dark side. And I think it was made clear that Sidious did not have the knowledge to use the force to this extent, as later in the film he says to anakin they will search out the way to bring back the dead together.

I think Anakin's creation was supposed to be one of those classic 'mysteries' where the Hero is born from divine influence, etc etc.

I think it's highly probable that he created Anakin. In Phantom Menace, despite having minimal contact with him, we get what appeared to be a nice pun about him "watching his career." What struck me though, was Palpatine knowing exactly what Anakin's dreams were (and as such, his fears). Even Anakin was surprised about that. To me, that says those dreams were influenced by Palpatine.

Letting Anakin be found by the Jedi, trained by him, and put into a powerful position within them would be a much more successful scheme then training someone himself to set up against them (see Maul). Then of course there's the convenience of having the clone troopers ready (supposedly ordered by Master sifadius, but just as easily being done after said Jedi master was struck down, with Sidus using his name in place).

Being in control of 2 opposing armies (with the benefit of bieng the winner no matter who lost), having the right angsty pupil pop up at the right time (with all the right motivations for changing sides), etc, all seem too coincidental to not have been plotted out fully.

As for Sidus not having knowledge of using the Force for immortality, that's open to interpretation as well. Using the midiclorians to create life is an entirely different ability anyway. Using the force to achieve immortality may have well been out of his grasp, or at the very least, just the right carrot to hold over Anakin, and be it true or not, it wouldn't have benefitted him to give Anakin the secret anyway, just to hold it above him. And while I'm at it, I just don't buy the whole "Padme lost the will to live," so I'll chock that one up to Sidus as well. Her death means that there's no one left to challenge Anakin's choices until Luke grows up. Even better, he gets the added rage from telling Anakin that he killed her (and he seems to know of her death a little too quickly at that).

On the Prophecy, if you consider Luke to be the same mixed sort of Jedi his father was (powerful & impulsive), it could be considered that he too was on that boarder between Jedi & Sith. He just made better decisions than his father did. And with all Jedi & Sith gone, Luke would be left as that balance between them, potentially willing to let the art die out. That's the only major downside to the final 3 films not being made, we'll never know what Luke will do with his teachings, pass them, or take them with him.

But those are just my thoughts on the matter.

[Guppy]

Good points you make.. it's made me think twice about the palps/daddy thing. I too like to think that he had a hand in padme's death. I really loved the sadistic grin he had on his face when he tells vader it was his fault she died. He was relishing that moment like a fine wine.

[Seven]

What gravitated Sidious to Shmi Skywalker in the first place? Why did he choose a slave woman from a backworld when he could have picked some disgruntled poor woman on Coruscant in his own backyard? Was there something special about her?

Edited May 24, 2005 by Seven