Macross Plus Ending

[justvinnie]

I like Macross Plus a lot. Kawamori uses some ingenious story telling techniques. On the surface it's such a simple mecha series, but there's so much running in the undercurrent.

I do not think that Guld ever raped Myung. He came close though...

vinnie

PS: Can you imagine watching M+ RT style with a constant narrator giving a play by play?

[JB0]

PS: Can you imagine watching M+ RT style with a constant narrator giving a play by play?

And with everyone going "Uh?" and Huh!" all the time?

[Keith]

You guys are not going on for 6 pages over this are you? The simple answer is "no," Guld did not rape Myung. He went into a violent rage, knocked Isamu out cold, and then tore Myungs shirt. At this point he see's himself in the mirror, and most likely blacks out, blocking the true memory of those events out for 7 years. There was no intent to sexually assault, and if anything, gone fully unchecked, he would have strangled her to death, not raped her.

Myung would not have been even remotely open with him, let alone slept with him, had he raped her. Isamu in turn wouldn't have simply bantered with him in their dogfights (as Isamu clearly had the skill advantage in a direct fight), and would have killed Guld before leaving Eden to join the U.N. Spacy. Both Myung & Isamu felt guilty for not recognizing Gulds feelings while persuing their relationship, which is why they broke up & parted ways in the first place.

Edited September 1, 2003 by Keith

[Gokurakumaru]

You ARE making it sound as though you are formulating your opinion in some kind of insensitive social vacuum.

Just because I'm not randomly polling women about Myung's behavior in Macross Plus doesn't mean I'm not thinking about real people when I'm talking.

Seriously, tell me just how much of personal experience do you really have, that you can use and relate to stuff that happens in anime like Macross Plus?

You mean have I raped someone or known a rape victim well? Can't say I have.

The point of JsARCLIGHT's I'm talking about IS the social honor code of Japan that he even supports. So obviously it's not like it's comething I simply made up as you want to present it as. Not his rape story. If it's a load or crock then why don't you argue why he also supports it?

So I should go around picking fights with everyone who says "yeah, I think so too" rather than just addressing the person who made the comment in the first place? What the heck for? Going over the point once is plenty.

There was no intent to sexually assault, and if anything, gone fully unchecked, he would have strangled her to death, not raped her.

So her clothing must have been covering her neck up I'm guessing...

Isamu in turn wouldn't have simply bantered with him in their dogfights (as Isamu clearly had the skill advantage in a direct fight), and would have killed Guld before leaving Eden to join the U.N. Spacy.

And this is what I meant before when I said everyone's opinions are coloured by their personal experience. Isamu would have killed a guy he felt sorry enough for that he first gave up the girl and then later lived a lie to protect? Again I have to stress you can't state any such thing as 100% certainty simply because of the diversity of the human psyche and belief system. Christianity would be as dead as its Messiah if the entire human race was uncontrollably vengeful. Just because you personally repay rape with murder doesn't mean everybody does.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Yikes... this has gone on even longer?

I went back and rewatched Macross Pluss this holiday weekend and Keith's "play by play" is accurate, Guld busts in on Isamu and Myung, decks Isamu, bullies up on Myung and then freaks out. No rape.

However, I can also somewhat agree with Roy now that the scene was in fact presented in such a loose and "open to interpretation" manner that if you squint your mind hard enough (and forget certain parts of the story) you could actually believe it had the possibility of becoming a rape. But in all likelyhood if you gave that exact same sequence to a jury to convict Guld of rape they'd let him walk in a heartbeat.

Guld is a greedy emotional child who lashes out at people at lot in the length of the story, look at how many times he starts a fist fight with Isamu... it is very easy to see him in his younger years doing the exact same thing: solving his problems with his fists.

And in response to some other comments in this thread: you cannot judge a culture or society by it's fringe elements. All american teens are not obsessed with sex and all japanese teens are not into indescriminant casual sex, only a very small minority of them are. The whole of Japanese society is very repressed, both emotionally and sexually and that sort of repression generates some very sick fetish materials like the previously discussed "rape porno". But that, again, is a generalization based on a minority within a whole. In the end, all cultures frown on rape in both social and legal terms.

[TriShield]

Screw killing Guld, Misa should have died with in the SDF-1 at the end of Macross, and Hikaru would have still rejected Minmay, now that'd be a Hell of an ending.

[Keith]

So her clothing must have been covering her neck up I'm guessing...

Essentially, yes. Guld first grabs Isamu by his shirt before laying him out flat, and he grabs Myung's shirt as well, but instead of punching her, he goes into a deeper rage just before he see's himself & blacks out. It's an animal reaction to rip apart something/someone you're attacking. Hell, take a look at the battle scenes in Evangelion.

And this is what I meant before when I said everyone's opinions are coloured by their personal experience. Isamu would have killed a guy he felt sorry enough for that he first gave up the girl and then later lived a lie to protect? Again I have to stress you can't state any such thing as 100% certainty simply because of the diversity of the human psyche and belief system. Christianity would be as dead as its Messiah if the entire human race was uncontrollably vengeful. Just because you personally repay rape with murder doesn't mean everybody does.

Isamu wouldn't have "given up" Myung had Guld raped her, he would have killed him, that's the alternate scenario, don't mix the two up. The reason he broke up with Myung & felt sorry for Guld was because Guld went into a jealous attack rage. So yes, I can state it as 100% correct, as that's exactly the scenario that occurred. While on the flipside you have Guld, who did mesh his memory into Isamu having sexually assaulted Myung, and he in turn had a desire to kill him.

[Gokurakumaru]

In the end, all cultures frown on rape in both social and legal terms.

Agreed. I just question the idea that Japan does moreso than its western counterparts and how relevant the idea of shame and honor is. I don't think Japan is just a nation of hornbags -- it's not like I've only met promiscuous Japanese -- but even if the country is no less prudish than any other nation, I don't see it being any moreso either.

Either way, the whole idea of pondering the Japanese viewpoint was to determine the likelihood that Macross Plus was meant to imply rape. Given the fact that sexual abuse isn't uncommon even in mainstream anime I'd say the point is moot.

Isamu wouldn't have "given up" Myung had Guld raped her, he would have killed him, that's the alternate scenario, don't mix the two up.

I was actually referring to how much Isamu cared about Guld with regards to him giving up Myung before Guld did whatever Guld did. The Guld flashback implies that much as Isamu leaves her and she is forced to grab his back to try to make him stay.

Personally, I just don't see a murderer in Isamu's character. This is open for debate obviously, but getting away from Macross Plus for a second, it should be obvious that not every rape in real life is repaid with a murder. This is why I say you can't just take it as fact. Guld tried to kill Isamu twice and he turned the other cheek both times.

[Hurin]

Okay. . . I went away for a while. . . and came back to see you guys still going on about this. . .

Mind if I add my two cents one more time?

It looks like Keith is going way too far in the opposite direction. I don't think you can seriously argue that Guld's motivation wasn't some type of sexual assualt. The debate (so far) really hasn't been about his motivation. . . but rather, how far did he go?

In my humble opinion, there is just way too much conclusion-jumping and faulty logic here. Things are being twisted and facts ignored when they are inconvenient. But the worse part, to my mind, are the personal opinions, boldy asserted as incontrovertible facts.

First. It seems that some believe that, if Guld did not rape Myung, then Guld could not believe that Isamu raped Myung. This is just plain faulty logic. There is no law stating that Guld's delusions have to be based entirely on what Guld himself did. . . but with Isamu in Guld's place. In other words, Guld may not have raped Myung. . . but he can still believe that Isamu did so!

It has also been said that Guld would not be distraught enough about simply losing the woman he loves, sexually assaulting her, punching out his best friend, seeing her cling to him in fear, and breaking up the most important friendships of his life. . . he had to rape her. That is the only thing that could make him snap. I'm not sure how to respond to this other than to say that, in my life, I've seen people snap over a lot less. Guld comes to the realization that he is a monster. . . that he came within a hair's breadth of doing something truly horrific. Rather than face this terrible truth about himself --and face the self-loathing he has already struggled with due to his Zentradi heritage-- his mind conjures up delusions that shield his fragile pysche from the trauma of the truth.

It has also been asserted by some that his friends protected Guld from his memories by not telling him the truth. Wouldn't they be less likely to do so if he raped her? And, conversely, wouldn't they be more willing to give him some benefit of the doubt and protect him from himself if he did not rape her because he did get ahold of himself and stop himself? There has been a lot of talk about how Isamu and Myung protect Guld from his own memories. I would have to watch the whole thing again to comment intelligently about this. But I really don't remember anything that directly stated this in the dialogue. But, either way, I don't see how Guld raping Myung makes his friends more likely to protect him.

Man, I'm tempted to go on forever here again. . . so I'm going to forcibly stop myself. . . and only say this one more time:

While Roy has modified/clarified his prior posts and now sounds more "it could go either way"-ish than others, I'd like to address the mirror issue one more time.

I think Roy's interpretation of the mirror is interesting. . . and shows a lot of thought. But, it also smells a bit to me like reverse-logic. In other words, it isn't the most likely interpretation of the scene. Rather, it only becomes a feasible interpretation if you first think: "Okay, let's assume he did rape her. Now, how can we reconcile the fact that he raped her with the visual evidence that Guld stopped himself after he saw himself in the mirror?"

But, the problem is that just fixing the "Well, they show him stopping. . . so how could he have raped her?" question still leaves all the other questions un-answered. Such as: Why would Myung sleep with her rapist later in life? Why would Isamu be so forgiving of Guld after his memory of the events returned? How could she be raped with Isamu still in the room? And all the rest of the questions brought up throughout this thread.

I think it is clear to anyone without any pre-conceived desire to interpret it differently that the animators put the mirror-event in the sequence specifically to show that Guld stopped himself! That is what is so frustrating about the other side's argument. They're essentially taking that bit of animation that was intended to say: "Look audience! This didn't go any farther! He didn't rape her!" and twisting it all around until it doesn't mean anything. And, it's all based on the assertion that this particular memory --and this memory only-- is faulty. I've said it before, but I can think of innumerable ways that the animators could have made it clear --while still remaining socially/politically palatable-- that Myung was raped. Further, I can also think up tons of ways that they could have made it murkier, so that we would all feel totally free to interpret it however we wish. Yet, they chose to put that mirror event in there for a reason. . and that reason was to show us that no rape took place!

In summary, having now found that earlier flashback where Guld sees Isamu and Myung crouched on the floor, looking up in apparent fear. . . here is how I see it happening. Please note that I don't need to insert "missing time", ignore/re-interpret images, or otherwise mangle the narrative to do this:

Isamu and Myung are talking as Guld watches through the doorway (the door is slightly ajar). Eventually, they end up in a semi-intimate embrace. Guld barges into the room. Isamu and Myung stare, agape, as Guld enters the room, Isamu (apparently realizing that Guld is in a violent rage) shoves Myung aside and takes a puch from Guld, and falls to the floor. Myung stands and stares in shock. Guld then approaches her and Myung falls (or is pushed) down against the dresser. Guld reaches down and (amid resistance from Myung) tears her shirt as she stares back in terror. Guld then looks up from Myung and catches a glimpse of himself in the mirror above the dresser. . . and screams in horror at the monster he now realizes he is. At this point, I'm taking some liberty by inserting the flashback image that was shown a few minutes earlier --of Isamu holding a distaught Myung as they both look up a the "camera"-- into the mix, with a bit of conjecture to get us to that image. As Guld screams and gets ahold of himself, Myung scrambles to Isamu's side on the floor where he embraces her protectively. Guld turns to see the two most important people in his life looking up at him as though he is a monster.

At that point, I re-enter pure conjecture. But please note that there is plenty there. . . and I didn't have to conjure up any convoluted, complex, and unsubstantiated stuff. I just followed what the story-tellers are showing me. From that point on, I assume Guld just flees the scene. Too ashamed at what he almost did to face his friends.

In closing (and then I'm leaving this thread again for a looong time, hopefully never to return), the scene was, --to my mind-- specifically constructed to show that no rape took place. I don't know why some people are so adamant about asserting an interpretation that is not on the screen and that is actively discouraged by what is on the screen. Yes, a rape is suggested by the torn shirt. That was the intent behind showing the tearing shirt! They wanted to show us Guld's horrible intent. But, they also show Guld stopping. . . thus suggesting that. . . Guld stopped. Unless, of course, you can come up with a way to dismiss that. . . which some people have worked very hard to do.

Oh, and Guld also made a ham sandwich.

Best Regards,

Hurin

Edited September 2, 2003 by Hurin

[Gokurakumaru]

It seems that some believe that, if Guld did not rape Myung, then Guld could not believe that Isamu raped Myung.

My problem with this is simply that Myung had nothing more done to her than had her clothes torn, and after the day in question not even that would have been brought up. Even if Guld wanted to pretend Isamu was responsible I don't see him wanting to kill Isamu over pushing her down and tearing her clothes. And if he's trying to repress whatever terrible events did happen I can't see him then exaggerating just how bad it was. Faulty logic maybe. But that's the logic behind why I think Guld needs the rape in order to behave the way he does.

It has also been asserted by some that his friends protected Guld from his memories by not telling him the truth. Wouldn't they be less likely to do so if he raped her? And, conversely, wouldn't they be more willing to give him some benefit of the doubt and protect him from himself if he did not rape her because he did get ahold of himself and stop himself?

Yep, this is a more likely scenario. But I still think the whole "Zentradi gene makes it not his fault" holds enough sway in the world of the Macross that they'd have done it anyhow. Millard gambles an entire test project on it. It's like your schizophrenic neighbor not taking his medication for some reason beyond his control and you never talking to him again because he ends up on your front lawn cursing at invisible people in his underwear.

I think it is clear to anyone without any pre-conceived desire to interpret it differently that the animators put the mirror-event in the sequence specifically to show that Guld stopped himself!

How can these be pre conceived notions when they're conclusions we drew by watching the show? I don't read rape into every show, just the ones that suggest that's what happened. Anyhow, I believe the animators put the mirror in to show Guld finally looking himself in the face and recognizing what he's done. Guld only faces what he's done in the final dogfight, and that's why he's wearing the exact same expression even though he's staring into open sky rather than a mirror.

And can I just ask that people drop the "why do you want it to be rape?" or "preconceived desire" angle? The show could go either way but it leans more on the rape side of the scale to me.

Why do you so not want it to be rape? Can't face fiction which is sometimes as unpleasant as real life?

Why do people have proconceived notions that there'll be a happy ending? Everything that happens earlier in the show suggests the exact opposite.

Why the expectation that Guld can't be a rapist simply because we're expected to be sympathetic to his self sacrifice? End of Evangelion doesn't show characters in just black and white. Why should Kawamori expect any less from his audience?

[Hurin]

My problem with this is simply that Myung had nothing more done to her than had her clothes torn, and after the day in question not even that would have been brought up. Even if Guld wanted to pretend Isamu was responsible I don't see him wanting to kill Isamu over pushing her down and tearing her clothes. And if he's trying to repress whatever terrible events did happen I can't see him then exaggerating just how bad it was. Faulty logic maybe. But that's the logic behind why I think Guld needs the rape in order to behave the way he does.

I think we've said this before regarding this. . . we just disagree. If one of my friends ever even came close to physically harming my girlfriend. . . there would be hell to pay. But, the point here is that the event broke them all apart. And, rather than take responsibility for it, Guld projected all the horrible truths he refused to acknowledge about himself onto Isamu. In other words, Guld hated himself and probably thought he deserved to die for the horrible things he is capable of doing. . . but he transferred all that hatred to Isamu.

I think we're at an impasse on this point. "Nothing more done to her than had her clothes torn?" I just think assaulting a woman in the manner in which he did is inexcusable. He's already a monster for doing just that. He's also a monster for what he intended to do before controlling himself. He's Just not a monster that actually raped her. To say what he is, and what he did doesn't warrant his cracked behavior. . . well, I just don't see it.

Yep, this is a more likely scenario. But I still think the whole "Zentradi gene makes it not his fault" holds enough sway in the world of the Macross that they'd have done it anyhow.  Millard gambles an entire test project on it.

Again, this is convenient. You concede my point, but then just say: "Eh, but I think they would have forgiven him in either case." And, I would point out that Guld never sexually assaulted Millard. That's apples and oranges my friend.

How can these be pre conceived notions when they're conclusions we drew by watching the show?

That scene sorta washes over you. But what stuck out in my mind the most was the mirror-event. At that point, I thought to myself, clearly: "Okay, he stopped. . . but what the hell happened before he stopped." That's why DVD players have rewind.

Guld only faces what he's done in the final dogfight, and that's why he's wearing the exact same expression even though he's staring into open sky rather than a mirror.

This is not the first time a big deal has been made of how they transpose the screaming young Guld with the screaming older Guld in the cockpit. But, for the life of me, I can't see how this proves your point. This is, to my mind, very clearly a classic use of transposition that we see all the time in film when a character is reliving something and/or having a flashback. Guld glances up and sees the horrible monster he has become and screams. . . Guld in his cockpit is reliving that exact moment in his mind. . . so he screams as well. The transposition of faces is an artistic touch. Nothing more. . . unless you have an agenda.

Let me say that again: Nothing about the artistic use of transposition indicates that Guld was remembering any more than what they showed us in his flashback! They show us his flashback. . . he screams in his flashback. . . and then they bring us back to the present by transposing his young screaming face over his older screaming face. That's it. Again, unless you have an agenda.

Why do you so not want it to be rape? Can't face fiction which is sometimes as unpleasant as real life?

I just don't like it when people make unsubstantiated assertions. I often pop up in threads when people say stuff like: "Yamato will go broke if they keep making 1/48s!" Actually, I usually like my films and TV to be pretty "dark." Thanks for asking!

Why do people have proconceived notions that there'll be a happy ending? Everything that happens earlier in the show suggests the exact opposite.

I hate happy endings. My favorite movies are Braveheart, Glory, Gladiator, and Patton. Funny thing though, we're not talking about the ending here.

Why the expectation that Guld can't be a rapist simply because we're expected to be sympathetic to his self sacrifice? End of Evangelion doesn't show characters in just black and white. Why should Kawamori expect any less from his audience?

Never seen Evangelion. But I sorta side with those who say that Kawamori isn't the type to actually include rape in his work. I believe that someone mentioned earlier that there is another near-rape in Macross 7. Again. . . near.

Enjoying a ham sandwich right now!

H

Edited September 2, 2003 by Hurin

[Hurin]

I'd like to spend a bit more time on this:

How can these be pre conceived notions when they're conclusions we drew by watching the show?

Let me clarify. . .

If you are someone who believes that Guld stopped himself before he raped her. . . the rest of the story makes a lot of sense without having to contort, distort, or otherwise re-interpret the other aspects of the story. You don't have to say that the mirror "wasn't really there" and that Guld "never really screamed as he stopped himself." You don't have to somehow explain Myung or Isamu's later behavior. Things just fit. To you they don't. . . but I think you're forcing square pegs into round holes because you've already made your conclusion. . . further evidence be damned.

I find it hard to believe that when you saw the flashback sequence, you thought to yourself: "Oh. He raped her. That is why Myung slept with him. And the rape totally explains why Isamu seems to be so friendly with him now. And of course, it makes sense completely that Guld raped her while Isamu was in the room."

Rather, after the initial (in my opinion) mis-interpretation of the scene, you then bring your pre-determined judgement about the flashback scene to the rest of the evidence brought up by those who don't think Guld raped her. Your belief regarding that scene colors your view of all the other issues brought up by those who would try to change your mind.

In other words, instead of letting the facts lead you to a conlusion. . . you're contorting, dismissing, and otherwise re-interpreting the facts to support a conclusion you already made.

It's all rather backwards.

The "he raped her" argument is all based on very shakey, conjectural, "it could mean this. . ." sort of evidence. Not to be too blunt, or arrogant. . . but it's a house of cards. It just does not fit what is on the screen or in the narrative as well as the more conventional view that Guld stopped himself as he did on the screen. To put it another way, the "he raped her argument" always seems to be on the defensive, because there is very little in the actual anime to support it. While common sense (women sleeping with their rapists, etc.) and what is on the screen tends to discredit it. Yes, you can believe Guld raped her, but only if you willfully apply that mental "filter" to every piece of evidence to the contrary that you come across. But when you find yourself trying that hard to maintain your position, maybe it is time to change your position.

Best Regards,

H

Edited September 2, 2003 by Hurin

[SilverValkyrie]

This is the most beautiful thread ever....long, convoluted, and full of INTELLECTUAL debate....what more could you ask for?!!!

Valkyrie

[Keith]

Guld didn't rape Myung, this much is absolute fact. Guld did however percieve that Isamu did something to Myung, this I won't argue with.

[JB0]

This is the most beautiful thread ever....long, convoluted, and full of INTELLECTUAL debate....what more could you ask for?!!!

Valkyrie

Profanity and questioning of people's mothers' fidelity and species?

[Gokurakumaru]

"Oh. He tried raping her. That is why Myung slept with him. And the attempted rape totally explains why Isamu seems to be so friendly with him now."

Unlikely versus unlikely. Your point hinges on Myung and Isamu forgiving Guld the attempted rapist, but being incapable of forgiving Guld the rapist.

In other words, instead of letting the facts lead you to a conlusion. . . you're contorting, dismissing, and otherwise re-interpreting the facts to support a conclusion you already made.

No, I'm just taking everything at face value. I don't believe the mirror scene is the end of what Guld did and the show doesn't show otherwise. And like everyone else here I believe Isamu and Myung forgive Guld for what he did. The difference is you place more emphasis on the outcome rather than the intent so you don't believe Isamu and Myung can forgive Guld if he finished what he started.

Again, this is convenient. You concede my point, but then just say: "Eh, but I think they would have forgiven him in either case." And, I would point out that Guld never sexually assaulted Millard. That's apples and oranges my friend.

This is not apples and oranges because this is the whole reason why I believe Myung and Isamu forgive Guld. Millard doesn't doubt Guld has a medical problem. Whoever prescribed Guld's drugs doesn't doubt Guld has a medical problem. I expect Isamu and Myung, his friends, to offer at least as much understanding and not hold him exclusively culpable for whatever he did. And before you plead ignorance on their behalf, what event do you think it was that made Guld need to get medicated in the first place?

"And of course, it makes sense completely that Guld raped her while Isamu was in the room."

My response is the same as the first time you brought it up. We see Isamu getting floored the moment Guld enters the room and doing nothing to stop him after that. Even in the no rape scenario Isamu's not the one stopping Guld, it's Guld himself. Out cold or just slow to get up? The show doesn't tell us.

But I sorta side with those who say that Kawamori isn't the type to actually include rape in his work. I believe that someone mentioned earlier that there is another near-rape in Macross 7. Again. . . near.

You thinking Kawamori won't include it is as uncompelling as it is uninformed.

[Lightning]

"Oh. He tried raping her. That is why Myung slept with him. And the attempted rape totally explains why Isamu seems to be so friendly with him now."

Unlikely versus unlikely. Your point hinges on Myung and Isamu forgiving Guld the attempted rapist, but being incapable of forgiving Guld the rapist.

In other words, instead of letting the facts lead you to a conlusion. . . you're contorting, dismissing, and otherwise re-interpreting the facts to support a conclusion you already made.

No, I'm just taking everything at face value. I don't believe the mirror scene is the end of what Guld did and the show doesn't show otherwise. And like everyone else here I believe Isamu and Myung forgive Guld for what he did. The difference is you place more emphasis on the outcome rather than the intent so you don't believe Isamu and Myung can forgive Guld if he finished what he started.

Again, this is convenient. You concede my point, but then just say: "Eh, but I think they would have forgiven him in either case." And, I would point out that Guld never sexually assaulted Millard. That's apples and oranges my friend.

This is not apples and oranges because this is the whole reason why I believe Myung and Isamu forgive Guld. Millard doesn't doubt Guld has a medical problem. Whoever prescribed Guld's drugs doesn't doubt Guld has a medical problem. I expect Isamu and Myung, his friends, to offer at least as much understanding and not hold him exclusively culpable for whatever he did. And before you plead ignorance on their behalf, what event do you think it was that made Guld need to get medicated in the first place?

"And of course, it makes sense completely that Guld raped her while Isamu was in the room."

My response is the same as the first time you brought it up. We see Isamu getting floored the moment Guld enters the room and doing nothing to stop him after that. Even in the no rape scenario Isamu's not the one stopping Guld, it's Guld himself. Out cold or just slow to get up? The show doesn't tell us.

But I sorta side with those who say that Kawamori isn't the type to actually include rape in his work. I believe that someone mentioned earlier that there is another near-rape in Macross 7. Again. . . near.

You thinking Kawamori won't include it is as uncompelling as it is uninformed.

umm....it seems that part of this topic has been covered ninety ways to sunday. so we can drop that portion?

[Hurin]

Unlikely versus unlikely. Your point hinges on Myung and Isamu forgiving Guld the attempted rapist, but being incapable of forgiving Guld the rapist.

This is the first part where I think you're off your rocker. To even put these two scenarios in the same solar system of "forgive-ability" is so odd that it boggles the mind!

Are you aware of what a rape like the one you suggest took place would be like? It wouldn't be subtle coercion into sex like what happens in many "date rape" scenarios. In situations like Myung's, where a violent rape takes place, the woman is most usually horribly beaten until she submits to the man and allows him. . . uh, entry. . . for lack of a better term. It is vicious. Really think about what you're saying. You're talking about Guld forcibly having sex, via vicious violence. And somehow you think that Myung would just as easily forgive this behavior as she would Guld for temporarily loosing his control, but stopping himself short of actually harming her physically. . . I just don't have anything other to say than. . . nothing. At this point, there's no reasoning with you.

No, I'm just taking everything at face value. I don't believe the mirror scene is the end of what Guld did and the show doesn't show otherwise.

No, actually, it does show otherwise. You just want to believe there is more to it than what it shows. Further evidence and counter-arguments be damned.

And like everyone else here I believe Isamu and Myung forgive Guld for what he did. The difference is you place more emphasis on the outcome rather than the intent so you don't believe Isamu and Myung can forgive Guld if he finished what he started.

See above. Yeah. . . call me crazy, but I think it matters to a woman whether a man momentarily loses control and briefly assaults her. . . or brutally and viciously rapes her. Man, I must be insane!

This is not apples and oranges because this is the whole reason why I believe Myung and Isamu forgive Guld. Millard doesn't doubt Guld has a medical problem. Whoever prescribed Guld's drugs doesn't doubt Guld has a medical problem. I expect Isamu and Myung, his friends, to offer at least as much understanding and not hold him exclusively culpable for whatever he did. And before you plead ignorance on their behalf, what event do you think it was that made Guld need to get medicated in the first place?

For the record, I have only watched the OVA (Japanese language, Subtitle 2), not the Movie Edition. So, if the Movie Edition contradicts what I'm about to say, my apologies

Medical problem!?! Drugs!?! Where are you getting this from? This is where you really head off the deep end! At no point does anyone refer to Guld taking medication. Nor, actually, do they refer to any "medical problem." I know, because I just watched all four episodes at work (slow day). . . and paid very close attention to every damn line of dialogue looking for any reference to this, or any references to interaction between the three main characters after the "incident." But first, the "medical problem."

I think this is what you are referring to:

Doctor: "Analysis of Bowman's brain record revealed a suspicious Beta endorphin secretion. Somehow, he's been supressing the natural fighting instincts of his zentraedi blood. When that instinct manifest itself. . ."

This is not a referene to Guld's use of medication/drugs, or a medical condition. It is a reference to his brain chemistry, and the fact that there is evidence that he has been supressing a murderous rage. All this signifies is that Guld has been repressing his urge to kill Isamu. There is no evidence that he has been needing to do this prior to Isamu's appearance. But, shortly after Isamu's arrival, they start showing Guld's hands twitching, etc. In fact, the very first sign of him repressing this violent impulse is while he's looking up Isamu's records on a terminal.

Either way, I don't see why it matters a damn whether Millard was willing to let Guld continue to fly. I don't think he feels any fatherly concern for Guld or takes any pity on him because he is Zentraedi. He just realizes that Guld is a damn fine pilot. . . and his best chance at getting the '21 through trials. This point is moot.

Now, let's be clear, I think the "zentraedi-card" can come into play a bit in Isamu and Myung forgiving him for the assualt. But this whole thing about a "medical problem" and "medication" making them forgive him anything, no matter how horrific, just doesn't wash. And using Millard (whose motivation and relationship to Guld is completely different) as an example is just silly.

My response is the same as the first time you brought it up. We see Isamu getting floored the moment Guld enters the room and doing nothing to stop him after that. Even in the no rape scenario Isamu's not the one stopping Guld, it's Guld himself. Out cold or just slow to get up? The show doesn't tell us.

1. In the "no rape" scenario, there is no need for Isamu to stop Guld.

2. Thus, the show does tell us. . . if you want to believe it.

3. By your logic, Isamu may actually have stopped Guld at any point prior to Guld actually raping her. Because, by your logic, anything could have happened after the "mirror scream." By your logic, the show doesn't tell us anything. Hence, My contention that Guld actually prepared and consumed a wonderfully tastey ham sandwich.

You thinking Kawamori won't include it is as uncompelling as it is uninformed.

Hey buddy, you might want to simmer down. You may notice a change in the tone of my post above. That's because I think this little comment of yours is both rude, and arrogant. I have been very careful to always address the substance of an argument before stating a judgement on it. I would expect the same courtesy from you. Care to tell me why my statement is uninformed!?! Wanna share with us any other rape scenes found in Macross? Didn't think so. This sounds to me like a guy who's losing the argument. . . and starting to lash out in frustration.

Well, now that we've got that unpleasantness behind us. . .

Let's go back to something both Roy and Gokurakumaru have alluded to:

This is Roy's (edited a bit):

Some thing happen that day that was so bad that Guld repressed it and his closest friends decided to keep it from him. Guld convinced himself that is was Isamu, Myung saw Guld as victim as well, Isamu couldn't stand it and left. . . This was an event that could ruin Guld so much that Myung and Isamu went thought extreme lenghts to protect him. (new post)I think Isamu would to beat the crap out of Guld even just for an attempt but apparently he and Myung decided to protect Guld. In the rules of real life they would notice that Guld needs some mental help after that event but instead they try sweep it under the rug. All three of those characters back in the day had emotional issues but kept each other functional together. I don't think any one of them was using reason or the rules of real life. Instead of getting Guld help when he snapped they just decide to hide it from him. That act of concealing it turn them all disfunctional to a point where none of them were hardly following the rules of real life.

I could be wrong, but this and other posts sorta obliquely and vaguely allude to Isamu, Myung (and even Guld) having contact with each other for a while after the assault "incident."

However, there is actually no evidence that any of them ever saw each other again after the assault. . . until the events related in the show.

The best evidence (such as it is) for them seeing each other prior to the show is this:

Guld: "You knew the truth. . . what happened then. All of it."

Isamu: "What about it?" (again, odd response if they're talking about a rape!)

Guld: "You let me keep on calling you a traitor, a coward. . . and Myung. . . she knew it too. You both kept it from me. You both felt sorry--"

Isamu: "About the school festival. . . I was the one who smashed your plane. . . Let's forget everything after that, okay?"

Two points:

1. There are several points during the show where we see the main characters seemingly restrain themselves whenever Guld refers obliquely back to the "incident." And, Guld calls Isamu both a "traitor" and a "coward" that we actually see on the screen. Thus, no need for this to take place "in the past." Though, admittedly, I think he only calls Isamu a coward out of Isamu's earshot.

Before I re-viewed the above-quoted scene, I wasn't sure whether they were consciously protecting Guld from the truth, or if their facial expressions were meant to convey confusion over just what the hell Guld was talking about. I thought that Perhap they believed Guld was referring to Isamu betraying Guld by "making a move" on Myung. But, in light of the quotes above, it seems that they may very well have been aware of how deep Guld's delusion went. . .

2. Again, this is a very friendly and cordial conversation to be having with a brutal rapist.

And. . . let's take a look at Guld's "confession."

Guld: "My God. It was me. It was all my fault. I must have blocked the memories out. . . made him the one responsible. . . instead of facing the real memories."

This is an odd way to put it. "My fault?" A rape is never "your fault." You either "did it" or didn't. "Made him the one responsible" also doesn't sound right when we're talking about a rape.

But, if we're talking about who is "at fault" and "responsible" for their friendship falling apart and the shattering of their lives. . . that fits just fine.

Which brings us back to: "Why would Guld repress any memory other than that of a rape." Well, you've got Guld repressing several things. . .

1. The woman he loves choosing his best friend over him.

2. His assault on his best friend.

3. His assault (of a sexual nature) on the woman he loves

4. His knowledge of the monster underneath that was almost unleashed. Something only he is truly capable of knowing fully about. Thus, others can forgive him, but he can't forgive himself for what he knows he almost did. Well, he knows, until he flees from reality into his delusion. I've heard of people repressing memories of things that are less traumatic!

Let's get one final thing clear: Myung is in love with Guld too. Not just Isamu. Something that, again, would be odd had Guld raped her. How do we know this other than Sharon saying bluntly (as Myung's subconscious): "I love Guld. But I love Isamu more." Well, why do you think Sharon summoned both of them to come rescue her at the concert hall during the fire? She was torn between them. Don't you think, if Guld had raped her, that decision might have been made a long time ago?

And, finally, is this the way a woman looks at her rapist the very first time she seems him in seven years. . . most likely having not even seen him since the (alleged) rape?

Sadly, the affectionate, melancholy eye-twinkle doesn't come through when it's unanimated. . .

Best Regards,

Hurin

P.S. I know I've said this before. . . but I'm out. Civility seems to be breaking down. . . and I just can't imagine saying any more on this. I may type 90wpm. But even at that speed, this is taking up too much time.

Edited September 4, 2003 by Hurin

[Jemstone]

P.S. I know I've said this before. . . but I'm out. Civility seems to be breaking down. . . and I just can't imagine saying any more on this. I may type 90wpm. But even at that speed, this is taking up too much time.

Hurin, that's because you cannot reason with a person who has abandoned reason to support an idea which is made up in his mind. I think the only way for him to truly understand what's wrong with his argument would be for the unspeakable to happen to any woman he cares about. From that perspective, things would be a whole lot clear to him. I'll stop here.

[Gokurakumaru]

"Medical problem!?! Drugs!?! Where are you getting this from? This is where you really head off the deep end! At no point does anyone refer to Guld taking medication"... "In fact, the very first sign of him repressing this violent impulse is while he's looking up Isamu's records on a terminal."

I think I see the problem here. You don't consider Guld to have a tangible mental illness based on his genetics. I do. The very scene you describe is where we see Guld take drugs to calm his problem. That's not Parkinson's disease he's dealing with. It's the first time we see it happen but Guld already has the drugs to deal with it. I took the day of the event as the first overt manifestation of it. You see them as completely unrelated plot points. Although I can't imagine what relevance the Zentradi angle's inclusion is if it's not meant to give us context to their history. Giving Guld a tendency to go into rages is laying it on pretty thick when they've already provided a reason for him to want to kill Isamu.

Hey buddy, you might want to simmer down.

Your thoughts on what Kawamori is likely to put in a show are as baseless as everybody else's. Unless you and he are drinking buddies or something. Sorry if telling you so is rude.

Beyond this I'm taking Lightning 06's advice because I'm tired of making the same point over and over and I never came into the argument hellbent on getting everybody else to come around to my way of thinking, unlike some others. The crux of the matter is still you think they couldn't forgive Guld and I think they could.

Edited September 4, 2003 by Gokurakumaru

[Hurin]

I stand corrected. He does appear to pop a pill in that scene. . . and that scene only. I think I might have missed it when I looked down to jot a note.

However, that hardly constitutes a certain "medical condition." Nor does it indicate that he has been taking medications prior to that occasion (you asserted both. Even saying that his friends probably knew about it too!). For all we know, they are just downers to keep him from walking over to Isamu's quarters and beating the living crap out of him.

But, I do take Guld's Zentraedi blood into account. I just don't use it as a "erase most horrible crime against a woman possible card" for him. Yeah! I get to quote myself:

Now, let's be clear, I think the "zentraedi-card" can come into play a bit in Isamu and Myung forgiving him for the assualt. But this whole thing about a "medical problem" and "medication" making them forgive him anything, no matter how horrific, just doesn't wash.

Next. . . (you again)

The crux of the matter is still you think they couldn't forgive Guld and I think they could.

Yes. That is the crux of the matter. You have to believe they would forgive him. . . otherwise, no rape. How you can think they would forgive him for such a brutal, violent, horrific crime is beyond me. . . but that is your right.

For some reason, I want to close this thread up with this:

Are you aware of what a rape like the one you suggest took place would be like? It wouldn't be subtle coercion into sex like what happens in many "date rape" scenarios. In situations like Myung's, where a violent rape takes place, the woman is most usually horribly beaten until she submits to the man and allows him. . . uh, entry. . . for lack of a better term. It is vicious.

You think this is forgivable in Myung's eyes because he is Zentraedi. Further, you think she would actually be capable of remaining in love with Guld (or at least sleeping with him) after enduring such a traumatic, horrific, brutal act at his hands. I don't know how you can do it. But, I think that sums up your view.

So, I still think your initial conclusion is coloring your view of all the other aspects of the story. . . but I guess we're back to agreeing to disagree. Man oh man do we disagree. . . vehemently. . .

H

P.S. I'll work on my willpower and try not to post again.

Edited September 4, 2003 by Hurin

[Keith]

Come on, the pills were undeniable the means by which Guld was surpressing his "fighting instinct." They wouldn't have been introduced otherwise. He uses them at an exact moment when he feels rage, end of story.

[Abombz!!]

Come on, the pills were undeniable the means by which Guld was surpressing his "fighting instinct." They wouldn't have been introduced otherwise. He uses them at an exact moment when he feels rage, end of story.

Wait.... weren't them used because the YF21 System was affecting his brain or something? I remember the commanding officer mentioning something about the system affecting Gulds mind. I could be wrong though.

[Beware of Blast]

Come on, the pills were undeniable the means by which Guld was surpressing his "fighting instinct." They wouldn't have been introduced otherwise. He uses them at an exact moment when he feels rage, end of story.

Wait.... weren't them used because the YF21 System was affecting his brain or something? I remember the commanding officer mentioning something about the system affecting Gulds mind. I could be wrong though.

I think it's more like the brain control system is working too perfectly, that it even respond to every actionable thought of the pilot. It has got nothing to do with Guld's anti-zentran rage suppressing pills. However, it's Guld's rage and the brain-control system's malfunction, and sudden system response after Guld's rage subsided (resulting in Isamu's 'downforce' incident) that piqued Millard's interest to start an investigation.

[Abombz!!]

Come on, the pills were undeniable the means by which Guld was surpressing his "fighting instinct." They wouldn't have been introduced otherwise. He uses them at an exact moment when he feels rage, end of story.

Wait.... weren't them used because the YF21 System was affecting his brain or something? I remember the commanding officer mentioning something about the system affecting Gulds mind. I could be wrong though.

I think it's more like the brain control system is working too perfectly, that it even respond to every actionable thought of the pilot. It has got nothing to do with Guld's anti-zentran rage suppressing pills. However, it's Guld's rage and the brain-control system's malfunction, and sudden system response after Guld's rage subsided (resulting in Isamu's 'downforce' incident) that piqued Millard's interest to start an investigation.

Well... I guess that means I need to watch Macross Plus again... or not.

[Beware of Blast]

Let's get one final thing clear:  Myung is in love with Guld too.  Not just Isamu.  Something that, again, would be odd had Guld raped her.  How do we know this other than Sharon saying bluntly (as Myung's subconscious):  "I love Guld.  But I love Isamu more."  Well, why do you think Sharon summoned both of them to come rescue her at the concert hall during the fire?  She was torn between them.  Don't you think, if Guld had raped her, that decision might have been made a long time ago?

Hmm, this is by far the best explanation I've heard so far. Maybe Myung did indeed loved Guld afterall. But not as much as Isamu. And that fire rescue was a test - a 'nudge' if you will, in Guld's favour by Sharon. That's probably why Myung resigned herself of the hopeless romance she was living... hoping that Isamu is the one.

But then again, this is how usually most people (not just certain women) react to confusion added by another confusion. Maybe this is why Myung slept with Guld despite the fact that Guld tried to rape her last time.

Serious, but forgivable crime + the fact that Myung did loved Guld. Not charity sex.

Interesting... Thanks Hurin!

Edited September 4, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[Beware of Blast]

Well... I guess that means I need to watch Macross Plus again... or not.

I TELLYOU WOMAAHNNnn!!! IT's da Bomb of a cutting edgetechnology gal! AabrainControl system that respond to every VISUAL thought of the user!!! MEwonders what it can do for BoB when he thinkns of ShhhheCKSHAY Macrossgurls!

[Abombz!! ] ECCHI!!![/Abombz!!] <_<

B)

[Prime]

I think it's more like the brain control system is working too perfectly, that it even respond to every actionable thought of the pilot. It has got nothing to do with Guld's anti-zentran rage suppressing pills. However, it's Guld's rage and the brain-control system's malfunction, and sudden system response after Guld's rage subsided (resulting in Isamu's 'downforce' incident) that piqued Millard's interest to start an investigation.

I was under the impression that it was necessary for Guld to take the suppresion drugs in order to (but not exclusively for) interface with the YF-21. The brain control system could only interpret commands from a "calm and stable" brain, and not one that had such wild thoughts that guld would/did have.

I pictured the brain interface to require certain specific thought "commands" to function properly, as opposed to it trying to interpret every thought. This would require the pilot to be calm and to provide the machine with specific thoughts that it could interpret and implement (like the thoughts of moving hands and feet to manipulate the control surfaces). When Guld flew off the handle, his brain was no longer providing the proper commands to the YF-21.

It has been a while since I watched it, so I could be way off. Would something like the above make sense?

[Lightning]

I remember reading the history of the YF-21 (with the BDI system) and it said that the pilots of the -21 with the system in it often had brain problems which caused death or severe brain trouble, so the pills could've been for that...

[Prime]

I remember reading the history of the YF-21 (with the BDI system) and it said that the pilots of the -21 with the system in it often had brain problems which caused death or severe brain trouble, so the pills could've been for that...

Do you know how these brain problems were caused, or what "trouble" they had?

[Beware of Blast]

I was under the impression that it was necessary for Guld to take the suppresion drugs in order to (but not exclusively for) interface with the YF-21.  The brain control system could only interpret commands from a "calm and stable" brain, and not one that had such wild thoughts that guld would/did have.

Yes, that's why when Guld got into one of his rages, the YF21 brain interface & primitive motor function (primitive by the human bodies' more sophisticated standards) lost control when it failed to interpret the rage as a coherrent instruction.

That's probably why BoB is also considering not giving General Galaxy his business. He might end up with a white elephant.

I pictured the brain interface to require certain specific thought "commands" to function properly, as opposed to it trying to interpret every thought. This would require the pilot to be calm and to provide the machine with specific thoughts that it could interpret and implement (like the thoughts of moving hands and feet to manipulate the control surfaces).

The brain interface seems to be sophisticated enough to interpret basic "visual" thoughts as commands. Not just specific thought commands - as in thought-voice activation.

If not, how can one explain the "downforce" incident? It was simply just Guld's visual thought... because he was at odds with Isamu, and because of that, he imagined that he's in an advantageous position to harm him. And the YF21 pushed Isamu's VF11 down almost immediately afterwards.

He wanted to harm Isamu but didn't practically want that thought to really happen. And yet it did because he thought of that action.

When Guld flew off the handle, his brain was no longer providing the proper commands to the YF-21.

Like any angry person, when he flew off the handle, there was no "picture" in his thoughts. Hence, the static the brain interface registers visually.

Edited September 4, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[Beware of Blast]

I remember reading the history of the YF-21 (with the BDI system) and it said that the pilots of the -21 with the system in it often had brain problems which caused death or severe brain trouble, so the pills could've been for that...

Where did you read that?

I think so far, the only problem is because the BDI system worked 'too well' but was unable kick-in with a contingentcy reaction - in case the pilot is stumped.

Just look at Guld during his rage in a test. His mind only need to blank-out for a moment and the YF21 did the same. After Isamu rescued him, and he regained his thoughts, the YF21 functioned as normal/optimal again.

The pills have got nothing to do with the BDI system. If we were to put another easily irritatable human (not Zentran) in Guld's place, the same can happen also.

Deaths only happen when there is no contingentcy and the YF21 crashes. Severe brain damage could happen probably because flying a plane like the YF21 with the BDI system is too taxing for any regular pilot's attention - too MANY important decisions to make at the same time.

Edited September 4, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[Hurin]

I love how Keith pops in from time to time to just scream: "This is a fact!" or "End of story!"

There doesn't seem to be much room for debate with him.

But, yes, I too think that Guld was probably taking some type of pill to control himself after seeing Isamu for the first time. My only point is that this does not constitute a "disability" or a discreet "medical issue" on his part.

And, yes, it is possible that they might have been "standard issue" pills for anyone who needed the sublime mental acuity necessary to pilot a '21. But I find that less likely.

However, the point still stands that there is no evidence that Guld had been taking them earlier, or that Isamu and/or Myung knew about it. In fact, there is no compelling evidence that any of them ever saw each other again after the incident.

The whole asserted idea that Zentraedi are basically considered "disabled" or "mentally ill" in the Macross universe is a bit muddled. It's hard to tell if people are saying that all Zentraedi are held to a lower standard of behavior. . . or that Guld is a special case and has developed some form of mental disorder due to his Zentraedi blood that other Zentraedi generally don't develop. Either way, it doesn't make much sense in the context of the rape argument. . .

If all Zentraedi are considered on the verge of committing rape and/or violent crimes. . . and can't really be held responsible for their actions. . . there would be no way that the two societies could co-exist over the last 30 years as well as they apparently have in Macross Plus. I mean, who in their right minds would befriend a Zentraedi child like Myung and Isamu did? Who in their right mind, if you essentially expected violent outbursts, would form frienships and romantic relatioinships with someone who might any day just explode and commit atrocious acts. . . but you'd forgive him because it wasn't really his fault. Bleh.

If Guld is a special case. . . again, there is no way then that Isamu and Myung would have given him pity for being Zentraedi. . . cuz there is no evidence that they knew he was suffering from any sort of defined mental affliction.

The Macross series are vague about just how different Zentraedi and Humans are, genetically. At one poing in SDF Macross, they are said to be identical. Shortly thereafter, a UN SPACY big-wig says "nearly identical." Obviously, humans are similar enough to Zentraedi to allow them to procreate. That says a lot right there.

Beware: A lot of conjecture and theorizing ahead. This is just what makes sense to me. I wouldn't use this (and didn't) as a center-piece in the argument above.

I think that when the doctor above refers to the "natural fighting instincts of his zentraedi blood", he's simply referring to the idea that Zentraedi tend to be more hot-headed and violent due to the way their brain is wired. But this "faulty wiring" falls within the norms of human psychology and brain-function. In other words, right now, in the real world, we've got mounds of evidence indicating that those prone to commit acts of violence actually have different brain chemistry and structure. However, they are not considered mentally ill. . . that's just the way their brains are. And we sure as hell don't dismiss what they do because they just couldn't help themselves.

I think that Zentraedi are like those "prone to violence" people we currently live among today. They are "hard-wired" to be prone to violence. But that doesn't mean that they aren't responsible for their actions. If all Zentraedi were considered irresponsible violence machines, the UN would have shipped them all off to the moon by the time Macross Plus took place. IMHO.

Best Regards,

Edited September 4, 2003 by Hurin

[Lightning]

Deaths only happen when there is no contingentcy and the YF21 crashes. Severe brain damage could happen probably because flying a plane like the YF21 with the BDI system is too taxing for any regular pilot's attention - too MANY important decisions to make at the same time.

well, i think that's what it was, they stuck a regular pilot in the -21 and he couldnt handle it, but Guld could.

just like with the -19, that thing "killed" 7 pilots before Isamu got ahold of it.

[Beware of Blast]

Deaths only happen when there is no contingentcy and the YF21 crashes. Severe brain damage could happen probably because flying a plane like the YF21 with the BDI system is too taxing for any regular pilot's attention - too MANY important decisions to make at the same time.

well, i think that's what it was, they stuck a regular pilot in the -21 and he couldnt handle it, but Guld could.

just like with the -19, that thing "killed" 7 pilots before Isamu got ahold of it.

Notice also how the YF21's General Galaxy team was peforming beautifully in the competition until Isamu showed up. Guld was literally on top of things!

He's more sane and mentally able to handle the YF21. It's evident enough that Guld only took the pills later, not prior to being the YF21's test pilot.