Macross Plus - interpretations of the ending

[Nicaragua]

My friend and I were watching Macross Plus OVA again the other night and we both have slightly different ideas on what had occurred in the central characters past and how that had affected Guld.

One of us thinks that Guld had just completely blanked out the whole rape scene and only picks up his memory again maybe days later. During that time Isamu and Myung have decided to keep it all quiet and Isamu has left Eden and its this sudden disappearance of his best friend that causes Guld to keep referring to Isamu as a traitor and a coward.

The other theory is that Guld completely remembers the assault but has reworked it in his mind so that it is Isamu who is the villain and its his memory of Isamu attacking Myung that is the root of the his hatred. This is backed up by the way Guld perceives himself as a Myungs protector since this is how he perceives his role in the original attack as the one who saved Myung from Isamu.

Just wondering what the general opinion was or if anyone thinks its something completely different ?

Edited October 12, 2010 by Nicaragua

[shiroth]

The other theory is that completely remembers the assault but has reworked it in his mind so that it is Isamu who is the villain and its his memory of Isamu attacking Myung that is the root of the his hatred. This is backed up by the way Guld perceives himself as a Myungs protector since this is how he perceives his role in the original attack as the one who saved Myung from Isamu.

I've always gone with this theory, mainly because of the little samples of the backstory we get from Guld's perspective. Especially the last flashback we see where Guld finally notices that it was him all along who tried to rape Myung.

Edited October 12, 2010 by shiroth

[Nicaragua]

I've always gone with this theory, mainly because of the little samples of the backstory we get from Guld's perspective. Especially the last flashback we see where Guld finally notices that it was him all along who tried to rape Myung.

Yeah that’s what I’d always thought too but there are a few little details that my friend pointed out that make me wonder.

Firstly there is all the references to Isamu being a traitor and a coward which don’t really fit in with how you would describe a rapist.

Second there is Gulds flashbacks. At the end he completely remembers everything but until that point anytime he has a slight memory twinge he downs a load of meds to block it out. If he has been doing this all his life then he wouldn’t have a complete memory of what happened until the final battle which is when he truly lets go and doesn’t have any pills to hand.

Finally you don’t actually see Guld ever have a flashback sequence of Isamu doing the raping (from Gulds perspective). You see Isamu and Myung together and that’s pretty much as far as it gets before Guld starts knocking back pills.

It just put an interesting twist on the relationship between the two with rather than Guld just being angry at Isamu for being a potential rapist he is more angry at Isamu suddenly disappearing out of his life and so the feelings of betrayal which turned into hatred, when really Isamu did it to help maintain the illusion that it wasn’t Gulds fault.

[Robelwell202]

<facepalm>

You're missing it... totally missing it...

Guld, Isamu, and Myung were bbest friends during their time in high-school, as seen in the opening with the Teradactyl pedal-flier.

Now, getting on to the bulk of the story, Guld had held a huge amount of hate-on for Isamu, simply because he saw that Isamu had betrayed him (Ref: scene where Guld walked in on Myung and Isamu together). Guld saw this as a betrayal, and saught to punish the object of his affection, namely Myung. In addition, he saw Isamu as a threat, and in his bent recollection of events, he saw himself as a protector against whatever evils Isamu would do. For Guld, there were two things Isaum represented: A threat to Myung, and a threat to his project.

There was no 'rape' scene, since Guld's attack was a simple lashing out against a percieved betrayal. Also, the terms 'traitor' and 'coward' are easily used by someone who thinks they've been stabbed in the back, as Guld did.

[shiroth]

It looked like he was attempting to force himself onto Myung. Maybe using the word 'rape' is a bit much, though it's not far off.

Edited October 12, 2010 by shiroth

[Dobber]

Yup, I never saw or thought there was a rape. I always took it as Guld was just jealous of Myung and Isamu possibly having a secret relationship. He wanted Myung himself, then saw them together and went beserk. He blocks the memories and then later starts to see bits of the overall memory and figures it must've been Isamu who hurt Myung and betrayed them all....that along with his personal "feelings" on the matter.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Dobber

[frothymug]

I always used the term "assaulted".

[Nicaragua]

<facepalm>

You're missing it... totally missing it...

There was no 'rape' scene, since Guld's attack was a simple lashing out against a percieved betrayal. Also, the terms 'traitor' and 'coward' are easily used by someone who thinks they've been stabbed in the back, as Guld did.

Gulds flashback clearly shows him forcing Myung to the ground and ripping her clothes open exposing her breasts - maybe rape is too strong a word but its definatly a sexual attack. I would suggest that the only reason we dont see a full on rape is that its unnessacery to show such a graphic act in the context of the OVA but i always got the impression that the incident was more than what was shown, which was already pretty shocking.

If you dont think there was any kind of attack at all then i would suggest its you who is missing it... totally missing it...

[shiroth]

I always used the term "assaulted".

Yeah that's a much better word to use.

[azrael]

Was it assault? Yes. Was it sexual assault? We don't know because that was left ambiguous. But it was assault, and assault at a friend. Regardless of what kind of assault, Guld still attack his friend while Isamu and Myung covered up for his sake.

[Nicaragua]

Was it assault? Yes. Was it sexual assault? We don't know because that was left ambiguous. But it was assault, and assault at a friend. Regardless of what kind of assault, Guld still attack his friend while Isamu and Myung covered up for his sake.

Well yeah - i think its pretty obvious that there is some kind of attack, and the shots of Guld ripping Myungs top open would suggest that its a teeny bit sexual in nature, but this is all straying a bit from my original question.

[DrunkenPilot72]

Gulds flashback clearly shows him forcing Myung to the ground and ripping her clothes open exposing her breasts - maybe rape is too strong a word but its definatly a sexual attack. I would suggest that the only reason we dont see a full on rape is that its unnessacery to show such a graphic act in the context of the OVA but i always got the impression that the incident was more than what was shown, which was already pretty shocking.

If you dont think there was any kind of attack at all then i would suggest its you who is missing it... totally missing it...

Well Myung does throw herself at Guld later so I seriously doubt it was rape. He definitely assaulted her but given how Myung and Isamu treated him after the incident, I always got the impression that when he saw himself in the mirror he bolted out of the room. I just can't see Isamu and Myung behaving as civilly as they did around Guld if the guy literally raped Myung in front of Isamu back in high school.

[jenius]

I find it a little hard to believe that the three could have any interactions what-so-ever if Guld had actually gone through with raping Myung but the first couple times I watched Mac+ I was pretty sure that's where they were going with it. I mean, doesn't Myung actually hook up with Guld at one point after they're reunited? (been a long time since I watched M+). We know that Guld is the type of guy to "blow a fuse" so I like to believe he walked in and saw the girl he liked with his best friend so he assaulted his best friend and basically did the "you're a slurm" thing to Myung and treated her like trash and tore her top off and left it at that.

[Mr March]

In the OP, I interpret Macross Plus as the second choice.

As much as I dislike the concept, I do believe the possibility of a rape occurring in the story of Macross Plus must remain a valid interpretation. Fans like Guld as a character and enjoy Macross Plus as a tragic story, but we don't like the idea of rape (for obvious reasons). Hence, it can be better to chose an interpretation of Macross Plus which precludes the possibility of a rape via a literal reading of the story. However, the Isamu/Guld/Myung assault was written and animated the way it was for the express purpose of shocking and disturbing the audience with a traumatic event. Once the reveal is made, we the audience are meant to feel as surprised and horrified as Guld. If we as the audience comfortably preclude any possibility of a rape, the sequence is robbed of a certain dramatic intensity since we are "certain it never happened". A rape also makes the audience complicit just like Guld; we refuse to believe it really happened and thus we forcibly deny reality for ourselves just as Guld has done to himself. We are also shown these past events in flashbacks through the mind of a character who has already brutally distorted his own memory. I'm not sure a literal interpretation of Guld's flashbacks can be justified when their veracity is so questionable.

Above all, I have to be honest with myself as the audience; when I first saw Macross Plus, the scene in question evoked the thought of rape having happened (or at the very least, attempted). As I said, I'm positive that was the intention of Kawamori and Co. It's what I'd do if I was writing it. Now first viewings are not always the most incisive and we don't always interpret things the same way upon repeat vewings, especially when we are supposed to be shocked. But there is something to be said about first impressions. Audiences were convinced they saw a head inside a box the first time they watched Se7en only to discover upon repeated viewings that there was no such shot in the film. Yet at the same time, even though we never see such a shot, we all know whose head is in that box

Since we're on the subject of horror and shock, we should also consider what we are watching. This is a Macross anime and as dark as Macross gets (arguably M+ was the darkest), the creators couldn't explicitly depict a full on rape even if it was part of the story. But rape is such a horrible crime, the mere suggestion of it is sufficient to describe it without actually showing the act (a technique used in a lot of entertainment). So again, we're left with the possibility of the act despite the absence of it visually.

Now having said all that, I personally don't believe Guld raped Myung. For the most part, I don't believe rape is necessary to fulfill the trauma and subsequent motivations of the characters. Assault (even one on the edge of sexual assault) is more than sufficiently traumatic as the impetus for Guld's mental problems and Myung's personal issues. This is especially true since all three characters were such close childhood friends. The lack of a rape also explains why Isamu and Myung never pressed charges against Guld. With the past reduced to an assault, we can also sympathize more with Guld and his fury over being spurned by a romantic interest, an experience to which all audiences can relate. Lack of a rape also places the Guld/Myung love scene in a much more complex and dramatically fulfilling light rather than reducing Guld to a rapist and opportunist taking advantage of a mentally traumatized Myung. The love triangle is also much more believable and compelling if Guld and Myung have real feelings for each other. It raises the stakes and makes the audience believe that Guld just might win Myung over on Isamu. If Guld is just a rapist, there's no way to cheer for the underdog. Also, if a rape did occur, Guld ceases to be sympathetic and his death ceases to be tragic in any way. That interpretation is rather at odds with the way Kawamori and Co. wrote and animated the relationships in Macross Plus, especially those of Guld.

Hope that was worth reading

[Nicaragua]

In the OP, I interpret Macross Plus as the second choice...

Hope that was worth reading

That was a great read, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Im pretty firmly in the camp that believes Guld raped Myung, tbh im quite surprised that there are so many who see something different in that scene.

I dont think that it makes Guld any less of a sympathetic character since he clearly is not in full control of his zentradi urges so its kinda like having your pet dog bite a kid - its not evil its just its nature and it dosnt mean you love it any less even though you will have to get it destroyed.

As for the Guld/Myung thing then she does love him in spite of what happened. As Sharon says "I love Guld but i love Isamu more".

[azrael]

After seeing this thread, I'm reminded of how early-2000 this thread feels.

[Keith]

There is absolutely no way Myung would have "anything" to do with Myung if he raped her. The answer lies in the reason why Guld is on meds, he's prone to extreme rages. Guld was in love with Myung, already jealous of Isamu, and when he saw the two of them together, he went absolutely batshit & went all "hulk smash" on them. Yes he ripped Myungs shirt, but (I think) clearly stops his attack when he see's himself in the mirror.

I honestly don't see how anyone would believe that 1: Myung would sleep with Guld later, let alone put any degree of trust in him, or 2: Isamu wouldn't have killed him right then and there, instead of leaving Myung alone with him as he joined the military.

[DrunkenPilot72]

The answer lies in the reason why Guld is on meds, he's prone to extreme rages.

Wait I thought those meds had to do with piloting the YF-21 not his own personal health. The report highlighting Guld's aggressive tendencies was examined by Millard well after project Super Nova started so they couldn't have put him on pills to control an anger management problem nobody knew he had.

[frothymug]

Guld has worked hard to suppress his natural instincts and appear to be a normally-functioning person. You have to look at it this way: Guld is extremely intelligent, since he was both the pilot and one of the design engineers for the YF-21. I'm sure he was smart enough to learn how to control himself so any kinds of brain scans done while designing the BDS and BDI systems would come up with no anomalies. The very sight of Isamu triggered the neurological reaction that caused the BDS to go haywire. He's always had this condition, but he doesn't tell anyone about it.

As far as Myung's true feelings go, all you have to do is look at Sharon Apple's feelings. She says that she loves Guld.. but then says that she loves Isamu even more. Sharon's emotions are a direct copy of Myung's. What does that tell us?

[BeyondTheGrave]

But what was the conversation between Isamu and Myung before Guld came in the door?

Was Myung confessing her love to Isamu but says he can't due to the fact Guld has feelings.

I do think there was fondling tho.

After seeing this thread, I'm reminded of how early-2000 this thread feels.

Then I shall take it even farther back....

Lion-o can defeat Voltron.

There.

[Dynaman]

There is absolutely no way Myung would have "anything" to do with Myung if he raped her. The answer lies in the reason why Guld is on meds, he's prone to extreme rages. Guld was in love with Myung, already jealous of Isamu, and when he saw the two of them together, he went absolutely batshit & went all "hulk smash" on them. Yes he ripped Myungs shirt, but (I think) clearly stops his attack when he see's himself in the mirror.

I always that he stops the memory (memory that is) at the mirror since that is the point where he realizes that HE did the bad things, till that point he had convinced himself that Isamu had done them. He had displaced the memory of what he had done onto Isamu since he could not live with the truth of having done it himself.

[TehPW]

There is absolutely no way Myung would have "anything" to do with Myung if he raped her. The answer lies in the reason why Guld is on meds, he's prone to extreme rages. Guld was in love with Myung, already jealous of Isamu, and when he saw the two of them together, he went absolutely batshit & went all "hulk smash" on them. Yes he ripped Myungs shirt, but (I think) clearly stops his attack when he see's himself in the mirror.

I honestly don't see how anyone would believe that 1: Myung would sleep with Guld later, let alone put any degree of trust in him, or 2: Isamu wouldn't have killed him right then and there, instead of leaving Myung alone with him as he joined the military.

Zent

I agree, he just went batshit... and later felt so much shame that he misremembered the event, to the point of making Isamu the fall guy... Guld is 1st generation zent, a people still greatly getting a gripe on Deculture, thier natural inclenation to violence first before rational thought. He punchs Isamu, he grabs at Myune's shirt, tearing it dramatically for the camera, before looking in the mirror and seeing the monster that he is or could be. Isamu & Myune, BY NOT REPORTING THIS ASSAULT, uphold their love and friendship (because, you gotta admit, Isamu is a total apeface at times) for Guld. Both of them know, first hand, how hard it is for Guld (which is why Guld almost snears when he's talking to Isamu during the gliding scene, because he feels contempt for people feeling sorry for him BECAUSE of his genetics)....

[Ghost Train]

It'd be funny if Guld is Ranka's 1/4 Zentradi ancestry ...

[taksraven]

After seeing this thread, I'm reminded of how early-2000 this thread feels.

Yeah, its really funny to be debating this so long after.

Personally, I believe that most of the problems he was experiencing in M+ can be attributed to his rage problems/drugs that he was on to control them. It was an underdeveloped part of the story, but all of Macross Plus was rushed.

Taksraven

[MIsaHayase]

My interpretation of the scene was that Guld did force himself on Myung which certainly hurt all three friendships. I though it might have been his Zentradi personality asserting itself.

[Robelwell202]

Gulds flashback clearly shows him forcing Myung to the ground and ripping her clothes open exposing her breasts - maybe rape is too strong a word but its definatly a sexual attack. I would suggest that the only reason we dont see a full on rape is that its unnessacery to show such a graphic act in the context of the OVA but i always got the impression that the incident was more than what was shown, which was already pretty shocking.

If you dont think there was any kind of attack at all then i would suggest its you who is missing it... totally missing it...

I never said there wasn't an attack. What is shown is Guld walking in on Isamu and Myung, together, and the subsequent rage-hit that Guld experiences. I'm inclined to agree with others that say that if Guld had actually raped Myung, she would have absolutely nothing to do with him afterwards.

Simply put, this scene is very easy to interpret. Guld walks in on Myung with Isamu, Guld misinterprets what he sees as a betrayal, and in a blind rage, he tries to destroy (or at least, humiliate) the object of his desire, which happens the be the thing that betrayed him. Seeing himself in the mirror, he's hit by a sudden wave of shame, he subsequently blanks it out (which brings us to the point of recall during the final dogfight).

It's easy to see, really. And, while there was not rape depicted, the STRONG possibility that one could've happened is only mitigated by the image Guld sees in the mirror: Himself.

[Keith]

Wait I thought those meds had to do with piloting the YF-21 not his own personal health. The report highlighting Guld's aggressive tendencies was examined by Millard well after project Super Nova started so they couldn't have put him on pills to control an anger management problem nobody knew he had.

The meds are shown to be something Guld "should not" be using, in the "if you get caught using these, you'd be kicked way out of the program) sort of way. Basically, he hid the fact that he was on them so he could be part of Project Supernova.

But what was the conversation between Isamu and Myung before Guld came in the door?

Was Myung confessing her love to Isamu but says he can't due to the fact Guld has feelings.

I do think there was fondling tho.

Then I shall take it even farther back....

Lion-o can defeat Voltron.

There.

Guld & Isamu both liked Myung, Myung liked Isamu more, and both were "getting together" secretly to protect Guld's feelings. Guld walks in on them, finds out, goes batshit, and isamu carring equally for both his friends decided to just walk away from the whole situation. As opposed to say if Guld raped Isamu, Isamu would likely grab the nearest large object, bash his head in, and drop him and his glider off a cliff to make it look like an accident.

[Nicaragua]

Zent

I agree, he just went batshit... and later felt so much shame that he misremembered the event, to the point of making Isamu the fall guy... Guld is 1st generation zent, a people still greatly getting a gripe on Deculture, thier natural inclenation to violence first before rational thought. He punchs Isamu, he grabs at Myune's shirt, tearing it dramatically for the camera, before looking in the mirror and seeing the monster that he is or could be. Isamu & Myune, BY NOT REPORTING THIS ASSAULT, uphold their love and friendship (because, you gotta admit, Isamu is a total apeface at times) for Guld. Both of them know, first hand, how hard it is for Guld (which is why Guld almost snears when he's talking to Isamu during the gliding scene, because he feels contempt for people feeling sorry for him BECAUSE of his genetics)....

Guld is not first generation Zentradi. He is 2nd generation half human half zentradi crossbreed.

@robelwell - you may think the scene is easy to interpret but the different ideas in this post show otherwise. All interpretations are based on assumptions of what we think happened after the brief "attack" flashback that we see.

Maybe none of them ever saw each other again straight after the event? Maybe Guld left the room straight after looking in the mirror? Maybe Guld went nuts and started biting chunks out of Myungs buttocks? We dont know for sure so it is completley open to interpretation.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Nicaragua

[Keith]

Don't confuse not seeing what happened, for not knowing what happened. Again, you have to take all of the character interactions into account.

Myung: Far angrier at Isamu for leaving, than she was Guld for raging at them. Not the response of a rape victim.

Isamu: Can't figure out WTF Guld's problem is initially, and just why he's so damned at him after so many years. Not how someone acts when their best friend rapes their girlfriend.

Guld: when he finally acknowledges that he put his own guilt on Isamu, they share a laugh...not the act of a sane person who realizes they just raped someone they care about.

Hell, look how pissed off Isamu is when he finds out Myung actually did sleep with Guld after the fire, he was ready to rip him a new one, and that was consensual sex. Come on, seriously guys, use some common sense here.

[nexxstrait]

Myung was telling Isamu she liked Sheryl much more than Ranka, Isamu just cared for the mecha and Guld stormed in shouting Ranka is obviously the best. Easy, see?

Edited October 13, 2010 by nexxstrait

[shiroth]

Myung liked Isamu more, and both were "getting together" secretly to protect Guld's feelings.

Is that actually true? I mean from looking at that scene it just looks like Isamu was comforting her, and Guld totally taken the situation the wrong way.

I don't want to believe that Myung and Isamu would secretly get together behind their friends back like that. Even with the situation the way it is.

[nexxstrait]

Is that actually true? I mean from looking at that scene it just looks like Isamu was comforting her, and Guld totally taken the situation the wrong way.

I don't want to believe that Myung and Isamu would secretly get together behind their friends back like that. Even with the situation the way it is.

Uh, why not?

[shiroth]

Uh, why not?

It's just the way i am.

[nexxstrait]

It's just the way i am.

[Keith]

Shyeah, Isamu was just comforting her. He also stayed up all night with Lucy playing parchizi. Remmber when Hikaru & Misa were alone in the Protocuture city? Misa was just showing Hikaru how her zipper worked!